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MGySgt USMC (ret)
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Part I

Well, this is another subject that comes up a whole lot so rather than typing the same thing all the time, I thought it would be best to start a thread here.

Have you ever wondered why a commercial M1 or semi auto M14 receiver does not fit a G.I. stock?

First thing we have to understand is that it was essential that all U.S. military receivers hold exceptionally tight tolerances in the bedding surfaces. The only way they could make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of receivers/rifles and get wood stocks to interchange successfully was to hold those tight tolerances during manufacture. What many people DON’T know is that most commercially made M1 or semi auto M14 receivers DO NOT hold those tight of tolerances. That is why G.I. stocks may not and often DO NOT fit the receivers all that well. It is not the fault of the G.I. stocks, but rather the fault of the commercial receivers not being made to the same exacting G.I. tolerances. Now to be fair, if commercial manufacturers held the manufacturing tolerances to original G.I. specs.; then the receivers would cost two, three or more times what they do now and almost NO ONE would pay that kind of money for them.

This is also a HUGE problem for the people who make commercial stocks for the commercially made M1 and semi auto M14 receivers. There is such a LARGE variation in the way commercial receiver bedding surfaces are made, it is almost impossible to make their stocks so they will fit every commercial receiver out there.

Since the problem most often encountered is the fit on top of the stocks, this first post will deal with that. Follow on posts will deal with other fitting problems.

There is something very specific about the fit of the top of stocks for M1 Garand receivers. From the rear of the rear receiver legs going forward, there was a lot of contact for the bedding of the receiver. From the rear of the receiver heel going forward, it is a very different thing. The rear of the receiver heel going forward for about 1” to 1 1/8” is SUPPPOSED to contact the stock and then there is NO contact of the receiver heel as it goes forward until the rear of the receiver legs. IOW, you should be able to just see a very little clearance and maybe only a line of light between the top of the stock and the receiver heel WHEN you take the trigger mech out. (If you leave the trigger mech in when checking this, the hammer will cause you to think there is no clearance there.) OK, so WHY was the bedding deliberately set up for the front of the receiver and only the last 1” to 1 1/8” of the receiver heel? There was a twofold reason for that.

The first part of the reason is when the trigger mechanism is locked down by the trigger guard, M1 Garand receiver is pulled down on the top by being “sprung” a little between the high points of the front of the receiver bedding and the rear of the heel of the stock. Think of the receiver being bent so slightly you can’t notice it, but it is bent in a very slight concave curve. (Think of an upside down “U” in case you are like me and don’t always remember the difference between concave and convex. Grin.) By bending the receiver in that very slight concave curve, the heel of the receiver is held tightly to the stock and for good reason. As the bolt comes back in firing and hits the rear of the receiver, there is a LOT of twisting force applied the heel of the receiver. That means the heel has a tendency to lift up on the right side and dig in on the left side. We need GOOD contact of the entire last 1” to 1 1/8” of the receiver heel on top of the stock to counter those twisting forces so the wood stock is not battered down too soon.

The second part of the reason for the contact of the M1 Garand receiver heel being like this has to do with functioning. Seventh round stoppages were most often caused when a new type of boring was done on Garand receivers and the inside shoulder of the receiver behind the barrel (on the right side) was cut too much. MOST Garand receivers were corrected for that by welding more material in them. This was the most common cause of the dreaded “7th Round Stoppages” until the Arsenal got that corrected. HOWEVER, there is another reason for 7th round or other stoppages on Garand receivers and that is if there is NOT the clearance on top of the stock between the rear of the receiver legs and the last 1” to 1 1/8” for the receiver heel mentioned here. When there is not the clearance we have been talking about, the receiver can not be “sprung” in a downward concave curve and THAT causes stoppages as well. We almost never find this on G.I. stocks, but it is QUITE common to find there is not proper clearance in this area on COMMERCIAL Garand stocks. If your commercial stock hits the receiver heel where it is not supposed to, the easy fix is to lightly drawfile the top of the stock in that area until there is a very slight clearance between the top of the stock and the receiver heel between the rear of the receiver legs and the last 1” to 1 1/8” of the stock. Now, I KNOW this may be hard to believe, but time and time again I have “fixed” rifles from getting stoppages that could not be traced to other mechanical reasons by filing that clearance in place. When NM Garands are glass bedded to stocks, this clearance HAS to be put in them as well for both reasons mentioned.

I wanted to put this is a separate paragraph to try to make sure folks don’t miss it. You DO NOT have to have this clearance with an M14 or semi auto M14 receiver. When we first started glass bedding M14’s, we put that clearance on every stock. However, we later found out you can bed the ENTIRE bottom of the heel of the receiver and not have functioning problems. I imagine the reason is the difference between the gas system and cartridge loading parts of the Garand vs the M14. BUT PLEASE REMEMBER THIS, you do not have to have it on the M14 but you DO HAVE TO HAVE this clearance on an M1 Garand. What is remarkable that with both G.I. wood and G.I. fiberglass stocks for M14's, though, the Arsenals DID put that clearance in the stocks. So if you notice that clearance on an M14 stock, don't be concerned by it.

OK, I think this post is as long as the length allowed by the forum, so we will go on further in Part II.
 

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very interesting. Thanks Gus!
 
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MGySgt USMC (ret)
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Part II

So why doesn’t the top of a G.I. M1 Garand or M14 stock fit a commercially made M1 Garand or semi Auto M14 receiver?

If you have not already read it, it would be a good idea to read another of my threads for a more detailed explanation on M14 stocks here:

http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/67124-why-doesnt-g-i-stock-fit-my-rifle.html

It is VERY COMMON with commercially made M1 Garand and semi Auto M14 receivers that from the rear of the rear receiver legs going forward to the front of the receiver bedding surfaces, the receivers do not fit the top of the stocks all that well. The reason for this is the receiver bedding surfaces of the commercially made receivers for the top of the stock ARE NOT made at the same angle as G.I. receivers. Sometimes commercial receiver bedding areas have a much more pronounced angle than G.I. receivers and they may only be bedding on the very outer edges of the receiver.

It is also VERY COMMON with commercially made semi Auto M14 receivers that the heel section of the receiver is higher than on G.I. receivers or sometimes there is a step added on the receiver that was not on the G.I. receiver.

Now we can live with a little less bedding contact for the semi auto M14 receivers from the rear of the legs going forward, but we REALLY need the stock to contact at least the last 1” to 1 1/8” of the receiver heel all the way around. Some commercially made semi auto M14 receiver heels are noticeably HIGHER up from the stock than others. That’s almost always because that’s the way the receivers were made. So when you see light between the top of the stock and at least the last section of the receiver heel, you really should fix it both for accuracy and so the receiver does not wear the stock loose so much faster.

There are two ways to fix that. Some people glue thin wood “U” shaped shims around the rear of the receiver heel on wood stocks and though that will work for a while, that thin of shim does not last long. The longest lasting and actually easiest method is to glass bed or epoxy bed under the heel of the receiver. Before we talk about that, we have to consider two other things.

1. The first thing we need to examine is how much contact the receiver puts on the top of the stock from the rear of the rear legs going all the way forward. If there is little or spotty contact, then you need to glass bed the entire top of the stock. If there is good contact up front, then you only need to glass bed under the heel of the receiver. The way you can check the contact up front is to smear a thin layer of grease on the bedding surfaces of the receiver for the top of the stock. Lock the receiver into the stock with the trigger guard and then take the rifle back apart. The grease transferred to the top of the stock will show you how much the receiver is contacting the stock. Please don’t forget to clean the grease off the top of the stock with a wad of paper towels dipped in Acetone after you are done checking this.

2. The next thing we need to examine is how tight the receiver legs fit in the stock. If there is fore and aft movement of the legs in the stock, then we can’t just glass bed the top of the stock and we have to bed around the receiver legs as well. You check for this by turning the rifle upside down on the bench and taking the trigger mech out. Then grab the barrel around the gas cylinder with your left hand and do not touch the stock with that hand. Grab the pistol grip of the stock with your right hand. Now with “push/pull” motions between your hands, you will feel if the receiver is loose fore and aft in the stock. If you do feel movement, then you really need to glass bed around the receiver legs as well or IOW an entire glass bedding job.

There already are tutorials on doing an entire glass bedding job on the forum by TonyBen and others, so there is no need, nor room to get into that here. Let’s A$$UME the receiver legs are tight in the stock liner of a wood stock or tight in a G.I. fiberglass stock – so there is no fore and aft looseness or movement of the receiver in the stock.

The most common problem seems to be that the bedding on the top/front of the stock for the front part of the receiver is acceptable, but there is no contact under the heel of the receiver. So let’s go over that first.

You MUST at least roughen the surface of the stock that you want the glass bedding to stick to. If you have a wood stock, you may also want to cut a “U” shaped groove in the stock under the rear of the receiver heel to add a little more epoxy bedding. But before you go cutting on the top of the stock, you need to know WHERE to do it. The easiest way to do that is to cut/tear off pieces of masking tape and tape it on top of the stock right next to the receiver all around. When you take the barreled receiver out, the tape on the top of he stock will show you the outer edges of the bedding surface. THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!! You stay INSIDE the edge of the tape by 1/16” for any roughening or cutting/routing of the stock. That way, the epoxy bedding won’t show outside the receiver when the rifle is final assembled. If you cut to the tape surface or outwards into the tape, it is going to show after the job is done. It won’t look as good because then you are going to have exposed epoxy bedding.

OK, I think this post has gone on as long as it can, so will add more in Part III
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Part III

OK, so how do you glass bed for just under the heel of the receiver?

So I don’t have to type information out that is already on the forum, I would suggest you check TonyBen’s tutorials on filling the receiver heel with clay and using mold release on the receiver. I’m going to A$$UME you have done that and only describe what is DIFFERENT about doing just a bedding job for a receiver heel.

What we want to wind up with is a surface on the top of the stock where the bedding surfaces for the front of the receiver and the receiver heel are balanced. You DO NOT want the surface under the receiver heel higher than for the front of the receiver as that would mean the receiver was going to rock on that area only when the rifle is fired. That would play HECK with accuracy. So, how do we ensure the new bedding under the receiver heel is balanced with the bedding under the front of the receiver? It has everything to do with how you mount and retain the receiver in the stock while the bedding compound cures.

You make TRIPLE sure the clay fills the receiver heel and the receiver has been mold released. Then you press some epoxy bedding on top of the stock where the receiver heel contacts the stock. You also press some epoxy bedding all around the receiver heel bedding surface. We actually want a little more bedding compound than is necessary to fill up the gap and so the bedding material squooshes out a little. That will give you the best bedding surface possible after the bedding material cures.

Now, turn the receiver upside down and place it on your bench. Carefully align and place the stock in place. You want to push down on the FRONT of the receiver BUT NOT on the REAR of the receiver – so you don’t squoosh too much bedding material out. Then install the trigger mech, BUT DON’T LOCK THE TRIGGER GUARD DOWN!!!! Leave the trigger guard LOOSE. Wrap masking tape AROUND the front portion of the trigger housing and around the stock and receiver. Maybe do it a couple times around for strength. What we want is the trigger housing to ensure the receiver is aligned with the stock but NOT with the trigger guard locked down. That will ensure the surface of the bedding under the heel is in balance with the front bedding surface on top of the stock. Then clean off the squooshed out bedding material around the receiver on top of the stock with Q Tips dipped in acetone. Lay the rifle upside down somewhere it won’t be disturbed for at least 6 to 8 hours or better still, overnight. After the epoxy bedding cures, you take the trigger housing and stock off and clean up the inside of the top of the stock like TonyBen shows in his tutorials.

OK, so what if you screwed up and locked the triggerguard down before the bedding cures? (Yeah, I even messed up a couple of times doing it myself.) If you did it shortly after you put the trigger mechanism in place, then you only have to take the trigger mech out and take the stock off the rifle. Press a little more epoxy bedding on the receiver and on top of the stock for the bedding surface there. Then reassemble the rifle as described above and clean off the squooshed out bedding material and rewrap it with tape.

If you happened NOT to leave the rifle alone for at least 6 or 8 hours and locked the trigger guard down an hour or more after you finished, I’ve got bad news for you. The epoxy bedding will have set up too much for you to take the rifle apart and put a little more bedding compound back in. Then you will have to wait for the bedding material to cure and file down the bedding surface and do the whole job over.

OK, I’m getting tired so I will end this post here. I will go on with bedding the entire top of the stock in Part IV.
 

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And the word from Canuckistan regarding the Chinese connections is ....
The Chinese receivers carry the angle at the right side [ just below where the op rod travels ] back further than the US receivers.

No big deal ... US GI M14 stocks usually fit Chinese receivers perfectly,
except of course for the shorter connector pin walking out into the connector relief slot on a genuine M14 stock.


However, some aftermarket stocks [ Archangel / Springfield plastic ] will probably need a bit of TLC with a file at the rigjt rear to carry the angle back past where the stock maker stopped it.

YPMMV,
LAZ 1
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Laz,

Thanks for the added info on Chinese rifles and reminding me of something else on some SAinc. receivers at the same time.

There was a batch of SAinc. receivers that had an extra "shelf" of metal on the bottom right side of the receiver heel. There was no such shelf on the real M14 receiver and I don't know why SAinc. left the shelf on those receivers. I'm also not sure of the serial number range, but perhaps some others have that information.

That shelf caused the receivers to not go fully down into G.I. stocks whether wood or fiberglass. I'm sorry I have forgotten who mentioned it, but someone mentioned they milled the shelf off the receiver. While that would not harm safety, function or accuracy; I don't know what SAinc would say about the warranty.

What you have to do with one of those receivers is inlet the stock for that shelf so the receier heel will go as far down as the front of the receiver bedding surfaces allow. After doing that, you could also glass bed under it and the rest of the heel of the receiver, should you choose. I did that on one receiver a few years back using the method described in this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Part IV

OK, so now we will go into reasons you may wish to do a glass bedding/epoxy bedding over the entire top bedding surfaces on the stock.

BTW, I have to fight myself to call it “epoxy bedding” even though that is a more correct term for it. For 23 years as a NM Armorer through Ordnance Chief, we always called it “glass bedding.” That relates back to some of the earliest bedding compounds where we had to add a pre-set volume of powdered fiberglass “floc” to the bedding when we mixed it up. We had to do that with the old Fenwall and early Bisonite compounds, though in more recent years, the “structural reinforcement” material is premixed into the resins today. Please bear in mind that if I type “glass bedding,” that I mean the same thing as epoxy bedding as a generic term for any bedding compound.

PLEASE remember that you have to have the receiver tight fore and aft in the stock liner on a wood stock or in the bedding surfaces for the receiver legs. If the receiver legs are loose in the stock liner or in the fiberglass stock, you will need to bed those areas as well. Earlier SAinc., Armscorps and even some early LRB receivers had the legs so long front to back that you actually have to file the stock liner to allow the legs to go down far enough for the receiver to fit on top of the stock. Actually in many cases if the commercial manufacturers did not follow the M14 blueprint spec. for the receiver legs, I would prefer the receiver legs to be so long you have to file the stock liners to fit rather than being so short they allow the receiver legs enough slop or looseness that the receiver will bounce around back and forth in the stock. If you do have a receiver where you have to file the stock liner or stock so the receiver legs go down into the stock like they are supposed to do, then that’s the first thing you do before bedding the receiver heel or entire receiver for the top of the stock. I guess that also brings up the question on just how far down the receiver legs are supposed to go in the stock.

Ensuring a commercial receiver goes down far enough into the stock can be a bit complicated and in many cases requires you to go SLOW and careful in filing different surfaces until the receiver goes down on the stock enough. The way I do it when the trigger guard won’t lock the receiver down is; I smear a thin coat of grease on the receiver bedding surfaces and the grease rubs show where you need to file clearance. Please remember if you have a stock liner or an extremely tight fitting fiberglass stock, that the receiver legs can also keep the receiver too high and not allow the trigger guard to lock the receiver down – so you need to smear some grease on the front and back sides of the receiver legs as well to see if they are keeping the receiver from going down far enough. I DO NOT recommend you file on the bottom of the stock until you are sure the receiver is sitting down on top of the stock as far as it should go. If there is pretty full contact shown by the grease rubs on top of the stock, then and only then would you file on the bottom of the stock.

I can’t think of every example where it would be best to bed the entire top of the stock only, but I will give a couple of examples. Some commercial semi auto M14 receivers have the forward bedding surface at a much sharper angle than a G.I. receiver. When that happens, only the outside edges of the receiver bedding surfaces will tighten down on a stock. (When grease is used to check the fit, that looks like thin lines of grease running parallel to the inside sides of the stock.) It is probably best to bed the forward part of the receiver when you run into that. Also, when the grease shows less than a third of the forward receiver bedding surfaces are contacting the stock, then bedding up front on the receiver is also called for.

You need to roughen the bedding surfaces of the forward part of the stock before you use the bedding material. If you have a wood stock, you may wish to cut channels into the wood about 1/8” wide and maybe 3/16” deep running parallel to the inside sides of the stock that would be filled with glass bedding. You MUST be careful not to roughen or cut those channels outside the area the receiver will cover them when the rifle is assembled. Using tape up against the receiver to show those edges (as mentioned in Part II of this thread) is a good idea to show you where the sides and front edges of the receiver lay on the stock. SPECIAL TIP: Be extra careful on the front left side of the receiver. It goes inward at a sharp angle and you don’t want to roughen the stock ahead of where the receiver lays on the stock. Yeah, I forgot this a couple times myself and then you wind up with bedding compound showing there. It won’t hurt anything other than esthetics, though, but it is better that you don’t roughen it and have to use bedding material ahead of the receiver on the left side.

When you do an entire top of the stock bedding job, you MUST clay the receiver and use Mold release almost like you are doing an entire glass job. Once again, I refer you to TonyBen’s tutorials on where to put the clay.

ALSO AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT: IF you have good tension on the trigger guard, YOU MUST NOT lock the trigger guard down when you glass the top of the stock. If you lock the trigger guard down, you may lose most or all of the tension after the bedding cures. You keep the trigger guard UNLOCKED and wrap tape around the forward edges of the trigger housing and around the stock and receiver to hold the rifle together. You apply bedding material on the forward AND heel bedding areas as well as on top of the stock in the areas the receiver will bed. You apply bedding material along the forward top edges of the receiver bedding surfaces and all around the heel bedding surface. By doing this, it will properly fill all voids between the receiver bedding surfaces and the top of the stock and you will get excess bedding material that squooshes out all around the receiver. Clean off the squooshed out bedding material with Q Tips and acetone as mentioned in previous posts. Again, set it aside for at least 6 to 8 hours or better still overnight to cure.

IF you do NOT have good tension or no tension when the trigger guard is locked down during a trial fitting, then you can and should lock down the trigger guard after you bed the top of the stock. It saves you from having to wrap tape around the rifle to hold things together. That will also require you build up the bedding surfaces on the bottom of the stock after the top bedding has cured. That will be the subject of Part V.
 

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PRICELESS information on doing a [B]CLASSIC[/B] M14 glass bedding job

Gus,
this is absolutely PRICELESS information on doing a CLASSIC M14 glass bedding job. PS: [ I always called it glass too ] [;)

However,
I REALLY WISHED YOU HAD POSTED ALL THIS GREAT INFO A MONTH OR TWO AGO. It would have been very helpful to me personally as I worked up our ALLOY receiver bedding specifications.


I hope you don't mind a side trip into ALLOY bedding for the M14??

WITH OUR NEW ALLOY M14 EBR STOCK,
we are attempting to duplicate a drop in bedding job in ALUMINUM,
that "fits all M14 receivers,
and fits them well !!!
And as we all know, that won't be easy.

TROY alloy bedding uses a couple of screws under the trigger group housing to adjust for proper vertical height with various dimensioned receivers. On the TROY stock we play with, I need about .060" - .070" screw protrusion to get proper trigger guard tension and "draw" with our test receivers.

AKM alloy bedding was close, but some times required either some minor "dremlling" of the seating surfaces to get some rteceivers in all the way, or else some "shimming" under the horse shoe back of the receiver to achieve best accuracy.

So far, with our new EBR stock, witrh all the receivers we have tried for fit our alloy bedding surfaces fit pretty darned good, but
"DROP IN" translates into USING OUR GOOD FRIEND, "Mr BIG RUBBER MALLET",
and CAREFULLY working the receivers in and out STRAIGHT UP AND DOWN.

Because we have eliminated the forearm ferrule, we don't need to "close the hinge" and rotate the receiver to the stock for in and out. In fact, in theory, I suppose we don't even need that slight taper at the back of the legs any more either. By using the op rod guide as the forearm connector / tensioner, we allow straight up and down insertion.

Whether our new theories on bedding achieve maximum accuracy is still being tested on the range, but so far, results have been encouraging. However, it is difficult to separate the tight alloy bedding results from the theoretical advantages of using our new free floating op rod guide. I guess a few test strings without any forearm bolt should give us some idea of what the bedding does by itself, but I think I might have to make up a hybrid stock with the usual forend connection and our alloy bedding surfaces to really get an answer here.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts here on separating the bedding from the forearm tension, as to your experience on how much each half of the bedding contributes to accuracy
thanks,

LAZ 1
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
LAZ,

I'm not sure you can make a one size fits all liner to fit all commercial M14 receivers even with Mr. Mallet. For those who don't know, Mr. Mallet is just slightly behind Mr. Coffee for overall use in a gunsmith shop. Grin.

For a while in the late 90's/early 2000's, SAinc. made some extremely short length receiver legs front to back. Add the problem with varying heights different manufacturers have set for the bottom of the receiver heel, that is a challenge I have not been able to figure out for a "one size fits all."

As to bedding with or without tension on the stock ferrule, original G.I. spec NM "light" barrels, or the ones with the same contour of G.I. barrels, REQUIRE tension on the stock ferrule as do most Medium Heavy NM barrels. Even with heavy barreled double lug/double torque screw rifles, we often found they STILL liked just a little tension on the stock ferrule, though some few shot better with no tension.
 

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Thanks Gus,

LAZ,

I'm not sure you can make a one size fits all liner to fit all commercial M14 receivers even with Mr. Mallet.

For a while in the late 90's/early 2000's, SAinc. made some extremely short length receiver legs front to back. Add the problem with varying heights different manufacturers have set for the bottom of the receiver heel, that is a challenge I have not been able to figure out for a "one size fits all."

Well, how about we try for a "one size fits all FORGED CHINESE receivers??"" I know that back when I was first starting out with MY genuine M14 rifle TARGET builds, and shortly thereafter, with "Canuckistani LEGALISING" GENUINE M14 rifles by fitting all the US GI M14 components to Chinese receivers, I really really cared enough to check EVERYTHING on every BUILD [ I was so much younger and so much MORE NAIVE and PATIENT back then ].

I measured each Chinese receiver as best I could and compared with the GI receivers and the Kuhnhausen book's specifications. I certainly didn't have the gages that you used in your day job, or that Ted collects, but with the tools I had I could see no discernible differences between the GI receiver exterior dimensions and the Chinese FORGED receiver exterior dimensions. There seemed to be more variation between various brands / individual samples of the GI receivers than there was between a GI and a Chinese receiver. In other words, the Chinese kept their dimensional tolerances for their receivers as close to GI as I could measure. The heat treating, fit of parts, and finish of the Chinese receivers was not up to GI standards, but the dimensions were "close enough for Govt work".

We in Canada have seen a few different models of the Chinese 14s imported, some as recently as last year. There are some slight differences in these models, especially in the later models showing more consistent finish, and better fit of parts. I have in my shop four different Chinese M14 receivers, three Norincos of various vintages, and one NEW Polytech. All four of these receivers fit almost perfectly into all three of our protoype ALLOY stocks, which all use the same version of CNC programming to cut out the bedding MONOLITHIC, from one big 24" X 2" X 2" block of alloy.

Mr Mallet IS required to seat all four receivers fully, and a good THUMP with the hand is still required to extract the barreled actions from the stocks. And this fitment continues after dozens of re & re cycles. All four receivers seat all of our test mags perfectly, and all pass the "AFTER ASSEMBLY test for hammer follow" in any of these three stocks.

Where I HAVE noticed a difference is with ONE trigger group fitment. This trigger group needs Mr Mallet to seat it, and is NOTICEABLY tighter on drawing down the trigger guard ... although that has eased up a bit with a few dozen re & re cycles. This trigger housing is just a few thou thicker than the others, and is a nice tight fit in our cut out.

ANOTHER point of interest, is that one of the hammers is showing drag marks [ aluminum transfer ] from along the side of the trigger housing cutout.
But as for the Chinese receivers hemselves, they all fit near perfectly.

Since we are a canadian outfit, we don't have access to as many different brands of M14 type receivers as you Yankees do. It would be rally great if I could try every different receiver in our stock as part of our testing and due diligence. But realistically this isn't feasible. I do also have access to an early DEVINE M1A, and a few GENUINE M14 receivers, TRW included, and I will be checking foit with these.

As for the rest, I guess we'll just have to send some of our stocks down to those people who have a gaggle of different brands of M14 type rifles in their collections,
and pay them to test fit their receivers and give them free stocks to shoot.
;)
that was me making a joke
... or maybe not???
Maybe we really should do this??

Any volunteers with several different brands of M14/ M1A rifles that don't mind helping out??

I'm sure I can talk Frank into some free T shirts, or scope mounts, or something to pay for your trouble??

But I think attempting to extort a free stock to keep might be a bit excessive.
[;)


As to bedding with or without tension on the stock ferrule, original G.I. spec NM "light" barrels, or the ones with the same contour of G.I. barrels, REQUIRE tension on the stock ferrule as do most Medium Heavy NM barrels. Even with heavy barreled double lug/double torque screw rifles, we often found they STILL liked just a little tension on the stock ferrule, though some few shot better with no tension.
This information spoken by "the voice of experience" might be helpful ... thanks again!!

Just as a final PS,
a decade or so ago at a gun show, I lucked into a two CANADIAN MADE M14 N M marked barrels. These were of course NOT chrome lined, and came to me NEW, still in the cardboard tubes with the bore protrector liners.
Just to make you Yankees quiver, I paid $ 100 for BOTH of these barrels ... the seller decided to hold on to the third one "just in case he ever got back into M14s".

I cut one down into my usual 18.5" shortification,
and the other one was fitted to a rifle from Smithers, BC,
where I made my home for a few years.
LAZ 1
[;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
LAZ,

If your stocks will fit most Chinese rifles, that is a good place to start. If I were in your shoes, I would try to get with manufacturers/jobbers of receivers and offer stocks that fit their receivers and offered on their websites. Not sure if I would try to do it with SAinc. as their receivers change so much, you may/probably not be able to keep up with the changes of the receivers and especially not over their long range of making them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Folks, I am way too tired to type out the next part tonight, but I realized I did not explain why you need to put the trigger mechanism into the rifle when you glass bed either just the heel of the receiver or the entire top of the stock. The reason is to keep the receiver aligned with the magazine well in the stock. You also want to do that with the Garand when you glass bed just the top of the stock to keep the receiver aligned as well.

Back in the days we had to turn 5 standard issue M14's into light barreled NM rifles pre week in the early/mid 70's, we always glassed the entire rifle at one time. However, that led to the receivers sometimes not aligning properly with the mag well after the bedding cured and we had to do serious filing in the mag well. That's why I no longer bed the whole rifle at one time on either Garands or semi auto M14's.
 

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Free stock? Sign me up.

I have Armscorp, LRB, and 7.62 receivers. I'll try to take some measurements on the legs.

As I've stated before, the Armscorps will fit fine in a USGI wood stock, but will not slide into a USGI fiberglass stock.
 

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Noting that I am not a professional at measuring metal objects and my caliper is not calibrated by some lab and being aware that there are curves and angles involved:

The heel is in the back, the sights are on top. I measured some distances on my right receiver legs. #1 is the height (I think Gus refers to this as the length) of the leg from the center bottom until it meets the flat of the receiver. #2 is the length (front to back)of the leg close to the bottom just above the radius. #2A is the length of the leg (front to back) of the leg just below the slot where the trigger group locks in. #3 is the width across both legs on the outside of the bottom about in the middle.

7.62 #1 1.194 #2 0.815 #2A 0.8655 #3 1.2605

Armscorp #1 1.224 #2 0.8655 #2A 0.871 #3 1.261

LRB #1 1.179 #2 0.839 #2A 0.862 #3 1.258

Both the 7.62 and the LRB have holes (a single hole each) drilled in the leg, the Armscorp does not have a hole.
 

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Leonard,
thanks for the information.
Seems to be quite a spread in leg length there.
But usually, there is some extra space at the bottom of the recoil bearing surfaces for clearance. How well the tapered legs lock up into the tapered recoil surfaces is more critical.

PS: as soon as I've done some CQB test shooting with our next-to-last prototype alloy stock,
I have permission to chop it into a "receiver test fit tool", and send it down to you to try your receivers in out CNC bedding surfaces.

We'd like you to try the fit of the various receivers by themselves, then the trigger guards, and most important, how much trigger guard tension the two M14 pieces need to mate into the alloy stock, and how well they fit.

Hopefully they WILL fit in,
with no more than a bit of "gentle persuasion" from your pal,
Mr. Big Rubber Mallet.

PPS: These stocks are set up for the SHORT commercial length connector pin, and are not clearanced for the longer GI FULL AUTO connector pins.

Contact me by Email with your shipping address,
and we can continue this conversation privately.

PPPS: would you prefer a FREE M14.CA scope mount,
or a discount on the purchase price of one of our stocks when they come to market??

thanks for your help,
and OBVIOUSLY,
if you are Ex-military,
you didn't listen too well when the DI tried to teach you
NEVER TO VOLUNTEER!!
[;)
thanks again,
LAZ 1
 

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LAZ: PM with shipping info sent. I am happy to help, nothing is expected. I won't be doing too much "pounding" to get things to fit. I have to pay for what I break.

GUS: back on track. How do you relieve the inside back of a FG stock so a Armscorp receiver will fit? Is this a "hog it out and fill it in with glass" deal? And once you've glassed it in to fit, does the rifle then rotate in to fit?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
LAZ: GUS: back on track. How do you relieve the inside back of a FG stock so a Armscorp receiver will fit? Is this a "hog it out and fill it in with glass" deal? And once you've glassed it in to fit, does the rifle then rotate in to fit?
Armscorps receivers are noticeable for having very sharply angled bedding surfaces on the front part of the receiver. That makes them more complicated to prepare. I usually find you have to take most off the top of the stock in sort of " the middle area" to get it down to where the trigger guard will even close.

Have you tried using grease on the receiver bedding surfaces to show you where you have to remove material? Actually, it was with Armscorps receivers that needed it so much, that lead to me using that procedure on all semi auto M14 receivers. I do more filing than hogging out the stock and the receiver goes in and out of the stock many times before it sits correctly by where the grease transfers on the stock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Dang nab it, I forgot something! (I'm studying hard to be an old codger and I am practicing using Old Codger termnology. Grin.)

When I am ONLY glass bedding the heel of the receiver, I do NOT use a coat hanger to get added tension between the stock ferrule and front band. The reason I don't is because that would raise the front part of the receiver slightly above the stock and effectively wipe out some of the fit in those bedding areas.

HOWEVER, I DO use a coat hanger when glass bedding the ENTIRE top surface of the stock because then the whole bedded area will be properly aligned for tension on the ferrule to front band and the bedding surfaces will be tight on the receiver.
 
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