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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would appreciate any insight into a behavior problem I am having with my SAI Scout. The rifle has been glass bedded, the trigger tuned, and an NM flash hider installed, otherwise all parts are factory Springfield. A Leupold 1.5-5 scope is held by a Bassett mount and Leupold rings.

The pattern is consistent and involves the first shot being noticeably out of the pattern formed by the shots that follow. At 200 yards, this becomes more marked, and typically the first shot is about 3 to 4 inches left and two inches high. This occurs with different magazines as well as single loading the round by hand into the chamber and allowing the bolt to fall from the midpoint. My habit is to allow the bolt to chamber the first round by releasing the bolt from the locked position.

The rifle is capable of sub-MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards using handloads of Hornady 168 A-Max, 41.5 H4895, CCI BR-2 primers, Rem. brass.

Suggestions as to what to do to cure this would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

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This is called a "cold shot". My first shot is usually a little high and to the left also. The following shots are usually were I aim them. That being said I do not know what the remedy is.
Maybe somebody else has an answer....GI2

Siefly
MC1
 

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Mine puts the first shot (cold) about 2" above the rest at 200yds. I compensate.

Is it a cold shot or first round off the top of the magazine?
 

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I would appreciate any insight into a behavior problem I am having with my SAI Scout. The rifle has been glass bedded, the trigger tuned, and an NM flash hider installed, otherwise all parts are factory Springfield. A Leupold 1.5-5 scope is held by a Bassett mount and Leupold rings.

The pattern is consistent and involves the first shot being noticeably out of the pattern formed by the shots that follow. At 200 yards, this becomes more marked, and typically the first shot is about 3 to 4 inches left and two inches high. This occurs with different magazines as well as single loading the round by hand into the chamber and allowing the bolt to fall from the midpoint. My habit is to allow the bolt to chamber the first round by releasing the bolt from the locked position.

The rifle is capable of sub-MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards using handloads of Hornady 168 A-Max, 41.5 H4895, CCI BR-2 primers, Rem. brass.

Suggestions as to what to do to cure this would be appreciated. Thanks.
Once a problem becomes consistent it's no longer a problem. It's a sight correction. Really what your describing isn't a problem as much as a characteristic of rifles. People keep records of how their rifles perform in order to anticipate what they will do in the future just so they can put the sights where they expect the bullet to go. Keeping as many shots as they can in the middle of the target.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I wish this were a cold shot phenomenon, but it is not, as it occurs warm barrel or cold, with the first shot fired from a magazine or no. Insights?
 

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"They all do it and so berm the first shot."

Straight from Spingfield after the customer service rep went and spoke to the tech dept. But I know for a fact they don't all do it because my other doesn't and frankly I appreciated the silly advice about as much as you do. Thru many simple mods like what you mention I was able to get it to at most an acceptable 1" low and left or not happening at all, but I'm not sure what actually fixed it. My best guess was somewhere around the time I bought a new TRW bolt and lapped it in. Good luck.

Here is another thread documenting a few parts trials that failed to work. http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=85937
 

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Couple of things that did not fix it, altho the rifle gained accuracy from a few while a few helped minimize the issue.
Unitizing
Lapping band to ferrule
Verifying headspace to be acceptable
Recoil buffer
Match spring guide and Tubbs spring
Verifying roller to frame clearance
Diff mags
Boyd's stock
Steel bed bedding
Sadlak cylinder and piston and Vortex flash hider system
Socom gas plug(tried a few others)
Modifications to the dwell time(piston tail) which was beyond a long shot but needed doing

Like I mentioned, a few of the above were making clearly positive accuracy improvements, and somewhere around the eventual bolt replacement and lapping it worked itself to a very minute and generally non existant abnormality unless a 1 MOA flier is worth worrying about with a Socom that was worked to virtually a 1 MOA, from about 3, with that occasional first shot opening up the group another inch. I decided it just wasn't worth chasing farther with a 16 inch gun. It was minimized to beyond my satisfaction for that rifle, I shoot it now and am amazed at the overall change in the gun, but can't place one item as the fix.
I would suggest the lapping first since it's almost a freebie, altho I'm not claiming the experience or expertise to actually back that guess up. Be sure to maintain or veryify headspace if you go that route, goes without saying I guess. Maybe something in that thread will pop out, most pics are long gone. I still believe it was related to the manual bolt release or stripping that first round off the mag.
YMMV
 

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It sounds like you are saying that after ejecting a mag and inserting another that the first round is always high and to the left. This could be due to a damaged first round bullet. When you load your mags have you noticed whether your first round is horizontal or pointed slightly in a downward direction? Many times certain mags due to varying spring pressure will not force the round up into a perfectly horizontal position after the loading process. If this is the case, when you chamber the first round there is the possibility that it is being driven in at a lower angle onto the feeding ramps and the tip (bullet) is being damaged. After you fire off the first round (which is chambered manually) the natural tendency of the mags spring and follower force the rest of the rounds up into a higher profile position for the next rounds to chamber. The following rounds are driven into the chamber at a higher angle (due to the faster automatic chambering) thereby preventing damage to the tip and you are back on point. Carefully check to see if your first round is pointed in a downward position in a loaded mag. If this is the case then just make sure that when you load the rounds into the mag that you press down on the back of the cases to bring the spring pressure and position into the correct angle for chambering.
 

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It sounds like you are saying that after ejecting a mag and inserting another that the first round is always high and to the left. This could be due to a damaged first round bullet. ...
Short of the bullet moving significantly in the case mouth, I don't think that's an issue. I've shot enough soft points to know that the tips can be badly mangled and the bullet will still go to the same place on the target.
 

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Short of the bullet moving significantly in the case mouth, I don't think that's an issue. I've shot enough soft points to know that the tips can be badly mangled and the bullet will still go to the same place on the target.
I have heard others say that damage (mangled etc) to the bullet did not effect their accuracy. My experience is that in some cases the collision caused by the bullet coming in too low on the feeds is enough to cause not only bullet damage but also slightly loosen the bullet from the casing. I have had this happen due to the above. It happened with standard mil surp ammo and once I corrected the bullets feed path the damage and the flyers went away. Never thought about it much when I was adjusting my feeds to stop the bullet damage but now I'm wondering if it was the damage or the looseness of the bullet or neither. Whatever I did when I finished working on the feeds the flyers stopped. Go figure.
 

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Sounds like the issue may be within the amount of pressure that is used to chamber the first round, as opposed to the following rounds.
When the first round is chambered, is there any difference in play/movement on the charging handle then as compared to following rounds?
 

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Most folks will shoot their rifle, notice the flier, stop and disassemble the rifle, find nothing, re-assemble, shoot again, notice the flier ........
It also occurs after shooting then stripping to clean and the first shot or two after cleaning/stripping/re-assembly.
Beginning to see the pattern?
I can't take credit for the cure as it was Art Luppino who pointed it out.
Doesn't matter if bedded or not, the rifle flexes, twists, and settles into the stock after the first shot or two, sometimes three. I have learned, with a bedded, tweaked, peaked and NM setup rifle not to strip, unlatch the trigger guard or otherwise change the stock pressure and setup just before or during a match.
When i leave it alone and don't strip it after every match, I consistently get NO fliers.
YMMV.IMEO
 
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