M14 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 43 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,505 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
From the Marine Corps Times...

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/02/marine-corps-to-decide-on-new-45-caliber-pistol-022112/

The Marine Corps is closer to knowing who will manufacture its new .45-caliber M45 Close Quarters Battle Pistol, and could make a decision about the program’s future by spring, Marine officials said.

The semiautomatic weapon will be fielded to elite Marines in force reconnaissance and Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. The service could buy between 400 and 12,000 of them as part of a contract worth up to $22.5 million, officials have said. The current requirement is for about 4,000 pistols.

Officials with Marine Corps Systems Command, out of Quantico, Va., declined to characterize testing or identify which companies are competing for the contract. However, the Corps is in the final round of source selection, said Charles Clark III, head of weapons requirements at Marine Corps Combat Development Command, MARCORSYSCOM’s parent command. He declined further comment.

The new pistol is modeled after earlier versions of the 1911 pistol used since the 1980s by force recon units. Those weapons were called the MEU (SOC) pistol, short for Marine expeditionary unit (special operations capable). The precision weapons section at Quantico’s Weapons Training Battalion has hand-assembled 1911s chambered for .45-caliber Automatic Colt Pistol ammo for years.

MARSOC’s expansion complicated that process, however. The Corps’ special operations command has been growing steadily since it was activated in 2006, and force recon was brought back in 2008 after a two-year hiatus designed to help solidify MARSOC.

Now with force recon and MARSOC both using the weapon, there is greater demand, and the Corps is seeking an off-the-shelf option to meet it. Like older 1911s, the new pistol would fill the requirement for a weapon with more stopping power than the 9mm M9 common across the conventional forces. Special operators have paired .45-caliber pistols with other weapons for years, including the MP5, a 9mm submachine gun. MARSOC already fields existing MEU (SOC) pistols, Marine officials said.

Several companies submitted samples to the Corps in 2010 as part of the competition, but it is unclear who remains in contention. They included Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., and Springfield Armory of Geneseo, Ill.

Colt tweaked its 01070RG rail gun pistol and sent 10 prototypes to Quantico in 2010, Colt officials said. Colt’s prototypes for the Corps have a desert-color Cercoat finish, eliminating glare on the weapon and making it less identifiable at distance. They’re equipped with a popular night sight made by Novak of Parkersburg, W.Va., mounted on a Picatinny rail.

Springfield Armory sent the Corps at least six copies of its PX9105ML pistol for evaluation, company officials said. The company calls it the Full-Sized MC Operator. It has a black slide with a green chassis. The Corps has bought Springfield Armory 1911 slides in the past to use on pistols assembled at Quantico.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,505 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'd personally like to see the attention of a custom shop like Les or Ed but I am sure that's wishful thinking.

I don't have faith in today's Kimber to get the job done. I would trust Colt, SAI and S&W to pull it off though.

Tony.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
I don't have faith in today's Kimber to get the job done. I would trust Colt, SAI and S&W to pull it off though.

Tony.[/QUOTE]

TonyBen,

Please explain your comment on the Kimber not getting the job done. I don't have one but have heard good things about them. Just like to know why you said what you did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
839 Posts
The HK45 is a fine pistol, better than a 1911 IMO and they already are buying their M27 IAR from HK, the pistols already designed and proven, and can be had in FDE. Shoots way better than a 1911, easier to maintain, more capacity and less recoil
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,505 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I don't have faith in today's Kimber to get the job done. I would trust Colt, SAI and S&W to pull it off though.

Tony.
TonyBen,

Please explain your comment on the Kimber not getting the job done. I don't have one but have heard good things about them. Just like to know why you said what you did.[/QUOTE]


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...ols-no-good/UPI-29261297026775/#ixzz1DHs6Bb6p

RALEIGH, N.C., Feb. 6 (UPI) -- North Carolina's Alcohol Law Enforcement agency says 150 new pistols bought for their agents at $1,055 each were so unreliable they got rid of them.

Agency officials say the Kimber .45-caliber pistols repeatedly malfunctioned during training exercises, with rounds jamming, sights breaking and the weapons' safety buttons sometimes falling off, The (Raleigh) News & Observer reported Sunday.

Agency Director John Ledford said a deal was arranged with a local firearms dealer to swap the pricey handguns for less expensive models.

"Failure of a weapon during training is problematic enough, but if any of these types of failures occurred during a life-and-death situation the result could be loss of life to a sworn member of the division or an innocent civilian," Ledford wrote in a November memo announcing the change. "During violent encounters with armed suspects, reliability and speed are paramount."

Since the Kimbers were issued to agents in the fall of 2009, Ledford wrote, agents reported 289 malfunctions during training exercises, and many agents had chosen to carry personal weapons instead of the Kimbers.

Ledford said a deal was arranged to trade in the department's troublesome pistols to a Raleigh firearms dealer in exchange for 150 new Sig Sauer 220 handguns valued at $718 each.

"We are hopeful these will be quality products, and we believe they are," Ledford said. "The Sig handgun is the same model carried by the Secret Service."


Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...ols-no-good/UPI-29261297026775/#ixzz1n8N4cFjC

Also, google Kimber, Cohen, quality and Sig. Lots to read...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Thompsons were never especially top-of-the-line except when they first came out. Compared to the durability of a MP5 they aren't even in the same galaxy.

1911 pistols can be awful loud as far as I know. Maybe they just figure by the time they got to go to their sidearm (MP5 being pretty damn small itself) they want fairly decent stopping power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,263 Posts
I think larryp's comment was less aimed at the stopping power of the SMG and more aimed and ammo conformity. Just like with those old cowboy action rifles in .45LC, it's much more convenient and logistically simpler to fire the same ammo in both your primary and your sidearm, if it's reasonable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,072 Posts
A Thompson's Terminal Effect is much greater than an MP5 - it is a .45, after all.

And reliability has never been much of a problem for original, military spec Thompsons - the ones made after WWII for the civilian market were not up to the GI spec, and did not due justice to the design. "Real" Thompsons are just fine, thanks.

You are correct, though in that the original, WWI "Trenchbroom" models were better fighting tools than the latter models - for a very good, simple reason. The original guns ran around 1000 rounds per minute. Unfortunately, the US Military had them all cranked down to 650 or so to save ammo in the 1920s!

Years back, when subgun matches were in vogue, the MP5 was indeed the gun to beat - initally - until someone at the custom Thompson Shop, GunMachines, rediscovered the original Thompson drawings and the original Thompson'srate of fire as actually designed by Col. Thompson. At 1000 rounds per minute, the Thompson beats the socks off of the MP5 - with dual pistol grips and some heft, it was apparently pretty easy to drive, too. I've fired both, and I'll take a Thompson, thanks. The biggest problem with a Thompson is that they have become too valuable to play with!

As for pistols, the 1911 still has the best trigger, the slimest profile - and is more than adequate for the task. I wouldn't take anything HK has over a decent example of it. CC
 
  • Like
Reactions: LausDeo

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,272 Posts
Marine soc has been using the 1911 for a number of years. They were built in the Marksmanship unit, one at a time. Built on Korean war era frames that was said some had over 500000 rounds through them. I read that a pre deployment training regimen could put several thousand rounds through each sidearm. The new kimbers are suffering from QC, older models, the "pre II", ones were good solid handguns. I have a first generation model that has over 90 thousand rounds through it. I would definitely trust my life to the pistol. The MP5 is 9mm, yes, but the shock to the body from several 9mm rounds striking, is totally different than one 9mm ball round hit. There is also a big difference between a MP5 and a thompson. Caliber is one , but the thompson is also machine intensive to make, its one big piece of forged steel. The HK is a stamping, its also used all over the world. And these guys , MEUSOC, know how to shoot, only hits count
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
We are going to a COTS pistol because of the aforemention Korean-era frames are almost gone. I personally went to Albany and gaged over 1100 1911s the Marine Corps "bought" from the Army. Out of all those we found ~300 that passed. The justification for going to a COTS pistol is that with all the 1911 frames we had in the inventory, it was a cost saving because they didn't have to be bought. Now the cost will go up if we buy frames vice buying a full gun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,046 Posts
+1 SA Inc.
I hope not for SA Inc. Do they make any of there parts in this country? I know they get parts from all over the world to build there guns. They don't have what it takes for a big US contract with all the rules that go with it. Sure they could make small lots of good guns, but they don't have the manufacturing for made in the USA parts.

SA Inc. is like US car companies. They put them together here with out sourced parts. Said but true.

I hope they go with Colt or HK. HK would have to build a factory like Beretta did in the USA.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
847 Posts
As shown on a vid, Colt still uses machines from the 30's and tout alot of hands on steps. A govt contract would need the full modern CNC operation, like Kimber or Ket-tec.

Btw, like any govt firearm contract, all parts would be forged and USGI.
 
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top