[BlunderDog]

Hello Mr. Fisher,
I posted in the steel and wood forum here, but feel the traffic is too low there. So I came straight to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak. (smile). Could you please discuss the headspace for the M1 Garand and the difference between the commercial and nato ?
I read the Kunhausen a little and it confused me, and early in the book he and another gentleman remarked that most were confused also about checking headspace on the M1. Could you post the actual measurements of the guages for both nato and commercial 30-06 or enlighten me as to what I need to do to check my Garand. Thank You very much. And great to see you back, you have been sorely missed here.

 

[RAMMAC]

Not to be rude, but using the search function can bring up a lot conversations about head space.

Here is one from Gus.

http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/66601-little-bit-everything-do-headspace.html#post428691

 

[mack7.62]

There is no .30-06 NATO, commercial .30-06 should work find as long as bullet weight is kept below 180 grains and powder burn rate is within the proper range.

 

[BlunderDog]

Not to be rude, but using the search function can bring up a lot conversations about head space.

Here is one from Gus.

http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/66601-little-bit-everything-do-headspace.html#post428691

I have read that and all others in a search function here, that is about 308 &762, I am asking about the M,1 30-06. But thank you anyway for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it.

There is no .30-06 NATO, commercial .30-06 should work find as long as bullet weight is kept below 180 grains and powder burn rate is within the proper range.

Then why is it head marked with Nato cross ? and why did you say commercial will be fine, see,I am confused. I know there is difference because I read about it in Kuhnhausen book.

 

[RAMMAC]

I don't know who within NATO still uses 7.62x63mm ammo and I'm not Gus but from what I read in Kuhnhausen's book (page 36, Headspace gauge note 2)

Military 30-06 gauge set (from base to beginning of shoulder)
Min (Go) - 1.940"
Max (NoGo) - 1.946"
Field Reject - 1.950"

SAAMI 30-06 gauge set (from base to a datum line, the datum line is at a point around the angled part of the shoulder that measures 0.375" in diameter)
Go - 2.049"
NoGo - 2.055"
Field Reject - 2.058"

I couldn't find any NATO or STANAG specs for the 7.62x63mm cartridge other than comments that it is the same as the 30-06 Springfield cartridge. On page 41 of Kuhnhausen's book is a picture of the military specs for the early headspace gauges and it shows the last change was in 1943.

 

[Gus Fisher]

Since we set the standard for the .30-06 when we forced everyone in NATO to take the cartridge in the early years, our military cartridge is the NATO spec. cartridge. RAMMAC is correct on the headspace readings for the cartridge.

There is no "alternate" civilian cartridge for the NATO .30-06 like there is for the NATO 7.62mm or 5.56mm.

 

[BlunderDog]

I don't know who within NATO still uses 7.62x63mm ammo and I'm not Gus but from what I read in Kuhnhausen's book (page 36, Headspace gauge note 2)

Military 30-06 gauge set (from base to beginning of shoulder)
Min (Go) - 1.940"
Max (NoGo) - 1.946"
Field Reject - 1.950"

SAAMI 30-06 gauge set (from base to a datum line, the datum line is at a point around the angled part of the shoulder that measures 0.375" in diameter)
Go - 2.049"
NoGo - 2.055"
Field Reject - 2.058"

I couldn't find any NATO or STANAG specs for the 7.62x63mm cartridge other than comments that it is the same as the 30-06 Springfield cartridge. On page 41 of Kuhnhausen's book is a picture of the military specs for the early headspace gauges and it shows the last change was in 1943.

Thank you Rammac !! that is what I was looking for, my kuhnhausen book is missing.

Since we set the standard for the .30-06 when we forced everyone in NATO to take the cartridge in the early years, our military cartridge is the NATO spec. cartridge. RAMMAC is correct on the headspace readings for the cartridge.

There is no "alternate" civilian cartridge for the NATO .30-06 like there is for the NATO 7.62mm or 5.56mm.

Thanks Mr. Fisher ! good info and exactly what I needed to know.

So if you were to set up headspace on your Garand to be real accurate. along with all other modifications for accuracy Mr. Fisher, what would you ream it out to for ease of operation and long shoots without failures, like appleseed matches where 100's of rounds are expended in two days ? What perfect headspace do you like ?

 

[Gus Fisher]

Thanks Mr. Fisher ! good info and exactly what I needed to know.

So if you were to set up headspace on your Garand to be real accurate. along with all other modifications for accuracy Mr. Fisher, what would you ream it out to for ease of operation and long shoots without failures, like appleseed matches where 100's of rounds are expended in two days ? What perfect headspace do you like ?

I am only passingly familiar with the course requirements for Appleseed. On The Marine Corps Rifle Team, we fired up to about 200 rounds a day when they fired double strings (or more) of rapid fire.

Could you give me the course of fire?

 

[BlunderDog]

The purpose of the Appleseed shoot is to provide you with the necessary skills to achieve an Expert score on the AQT (Army Qualification Test). The AQT is shot using a total of 40 rounds of ammunition.

The course of fire is as follows.

Stage #1 - 10 shots, in 2 minutes, from the standing position. 1 magazine is used assuming it will hold the required 10 rounds. This target is scaled down from a 100 yard target.

Stage #2 - 10 shots, in 55 seconds. You start in the standing position and transition to the sitting or kneeling position. Two shots are fired at the left target and a magazine change is performed. Three more shots are fired at the left target, then five shots at the right target. This target is scaled down from a 200 yard target.

Stage #3 - 10 shots, in 65 seconds. You start in the standing position and transition to the prone position. Two shots are fired at the left target and a magazine change is performed. One more shot is fired at the left target, then three shots at the middle target, and finally fours shots are fired at the right target. This target is scaled down from a 300 yard target.

Stage #4 - 10 shots, in 4 minutes. You start in the prone position with a 10 round magazine. Two shots are fired at the left and adjacent targets, and three each on the remaining two targets. This target is scaled down from a 400 yard target. The points achieved on this stage are doubled when adding them into the total score for the AQT. Mistakes on this stage count double against you.

About 250-400 rounds total on the weekend, depending on how many AQT courses you want to run through.

 

[M14xman]

Thank you Rammac !! that is what I was looking for, my kuhnhausen book is missing.




Thanks Mr. Fisher ! good info and exactly what I needed to know.

So if you were to set up headspace on your Garand to be real accurate. along with all other modifications for accuracy Mr. Fisher, what would you ream it out to for ease of operation and long shoots without failures, like appleseed matches where 100's of rounds are expended in two days ? What perfect headspace do you like ?

i would like to know the answer to this one too mr. fisher. your opinion matters greatly to me. what are your m1's set up to for headspace ?

 

[Gus Fisher]

i would like to know the answer to this one too mr. fisher. your opinion matters greatly to me. what are your m1's set up to for headspace ?

I go for 1.941 - 1.942 in a Match Rifle and 1.942 - 1.944 in a standard rifle. Probably anywhere between 1.941 and 1.944 is a very good headspace for a Garand.