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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Lately there has been a lot of references to CQB engagement as a strength of a particular build for m1a/m14's. What distance/range do you consider as CQB ..obviously no mininum but more importantly, what you think are effective engagement distances. I'm not looking for maximum range accuracy...that's no longer CQB. Whadaya think and why...
 

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CQB to me is inside 50m

CQB in refference to the M1a I would say is inside 300.

my point is its all relative.

but generally inside 50m, and for that role the m14 is really not so great, nut servicable with the right accesories, stocks.
 

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Look around you. Inside you house (or building) is CQB. Near contact is within 35m (hand grenade range) and everything else is far contact.
 

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Lately there has been a lot of references to CQB engagement as a strength of a particular build for m1a/m14's. What distance/range do you consider as CQB ..obviously no mininum but more importantly, what you think are effective engagement distances. I'm not looking for maximum range accuracy...that's no longer CQB. Whadaya think and why...
All IMOHO:

I think if in a situation where a full-sized rifle is too long, a handgun is probably the better choice. CQB is a really overused term to justify a desire for a cool looking firearm. Don't get me wrong, I built my LMT AR to be such a rifle, mostly to be as "evil-black" as possible to look down my nose at wankers who think "evil-black" = more lethal. THAT said, I would never pick up either of those rifles (the other being my M25) if I was faced with an intruder in my house. As a firm believer as grabbing the right tool for the job, it would be either my 1911 or my 870.

edit: For more perspective of IMHO, I also loathe pickup trucks that are chopped into low-riders, rice burners with a whale's tail on the trunk and people who buy Hummers never risking more than a light rain while driving it. Oh, and those idiotic clown cars built by Scion. Just... aurgh...
 

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IMO CQB is a rifle with a shortend barrel to decrease weight and increase maneuverability for tactical engagements, usually involves the use of ALOT of accesories and some type of built in secondary weapond, Spikes flash hider etc, flash lights, steak knives, forks, and a cooling fan you get the point, usually the attempt to build such a weapond and decrease weight goes out the door because people get carried away, for me CQB sight eotech aimpoint or like and a ergonomic stock OH and I cant forget my meat tenderizing stockDI5
 

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I love the meat tenderizing stock you have there.
I love the stock ACE claims it to be the strongest stock on the market, I love the adjustable cheek riser too, cracks walnuts makes a great cube steak tooDI5 imagine what it can stamp on somebody's face if need beUSN3
 

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i retract the inside 300 thing... no sense patronizing anyone right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
IMO CQB is a rifle with a shortend barrel to decrease weight and increase maneuverability for tactical engagements, usually involves the use of ALOT of accesories and some type of built in secondary weapond, Spikes flash hider etc, flash lights, steak knives, forks, and a cooling fan you get the point, usually the attempt to build such a weapond and decrease weight goes out the door because people get carried away, for me CQB sight eotech aimpoint or like and a ergonomic stock OH and I cant forget my meat tenderizing stockDI5
out of curoisity...what's the length and weight of you ebr rig...? not what I would think would be appropriate for HD unless using frangibles but if it is your goto...you have given it a lot of consideration as to how it works for you. I've got my socom down to 7lbs 6 oz, shortened the stock(Kalifornia) and looking into a frangible load. I don't consider it a goto primary HD but as a CQB aggressor weapon...yes. In my mind, my HD goto is hi-cap .45 or 9mm ...easier to handle in tight spaces.
 

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I don't think you can beat a standard M14 with fixed bayonet. Somehow, I think an intruder might just get the idea that you mean business and retreat. I must say, I keep a 890 next to my bed. I have always hoped that an agressor can be convinced he made the wrong choice of entering my home and just leave. I am prepared to convince him/her one way or another.
 

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A simple yet tough question to respond to.
CQB to me means within effective handgun/shotgun range. Approximately less than or equal to 50 yards.
I consider "point blank" for any battle rifle I own to be approximately 100 yards. Point blank because the default sights/sight settings are of no immediate interest and it just comes down to getting a sight picture and pulling the trigger ASAP in order to get the enemy before the perp(s) get you. The battle rifle/carbine is the preferred weapon as it allows one to engage at any reasonable distance without too much concern about being "out of effective" range. And better get through light barriers my enemy may be using for cover.
A summary comment would be "house to house" type fighting in a typical US suburb. Yes, it might be possible to have to deal with a few longer shots but all engagements would be expected to happen at ranges less than 100 and probably less than 50 yards.
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If a handgun were the only real choice I would strongly consider dropping an OC gas "grenade" canister to delay/confuse the enemy and attempting to reposition at longer range. The engagement is WAY TOO CLOSE if a handgun is actually a main fighting weapon choose as far as I'm concerned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
A simple yet tough question to respond to.
CQB to me means within effective handgun/shotgun range. Approximately less than or equal to 50 yards.
I consider "point blank" for any battle rifle I own to be approximately 100 yards. Point blank because the default sights/sight settings are of no immediate interest and it just comes down to getting a sight picture and pulling the trigger ASAP in order to get the enemy before the perp(s) get you. The battle rifle/carbine is the preferred weapon as it allows one to engage at any reasonable distance without too much concern about being "out of effective" range. And better get through light barriers my enemy may be using for cover.
A summary comment would be "house to house" type fighting in a typical US suburb. Yes, it might be possible to have to deal with a few longer shots but all engagements would be expected to happen at ranges less than 100 and probably less than 50 yards.
....
If a handgun were the only real choice I would strongly consider dropping an OC gas "grenade" canister to delay/confuse the enemy and attempting to reposition at longer range. The engagement is WAY TOO CLOSE if a handgun is actually a main fighting weapon choose as far as I'm concerned.
You may not have the luxury of choosing engagement distance in the situation of HD much less room to be able to acquire and manuever with a long gun...so the handgun is what I would use to get to your long gun if necessary at which point you transition from being a defender to becoming the aggressor?...otherwise in a HD situation, you typically wait and ambush?

All of this is relative to where you are, size of your house and the neighborhood you live in so there isn't an "only way to go" method. I brought this up because I thought "CQB" was becoming a loosely used "tacticacool" term and wanted to establish some limits. My thinking concerns my immediate base location and the area surrounding it. The ability of your CQB weapon of choice to reach out to greater distances is nice to have but not critical.

and OC canisters?...nice to have but that's shtf stuff...another topic
 

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You may not have the luxury of choosing engagement distance in the situation of HD much less room to be able to acquire and maneuver with a long gun...so the handgun is what I would use to get to your long gun if necessary at which point you transition from being a defender to becoming the aggressor?...otherwise in a HD situation, you typically wait and ambush?

All of this is relative to where you are, size of your house and the neighborhood you live in so there isn't an "only way to go" method. I brought this up because I thought "CQB" was becoming a loosely used "tacticacool" term and wanted to establish some limits. My thinking concerns my immediate base location and the area surrounding it. The ability of your CQB weapon of choice to reach out to greater distances is nice to have but not critical.

and OC canisters?...nice to have but that's shtf stuff...another topic
Thank you for clarifying your thread intent so that I can better stay on topic and not introduce thread drift where it does not belong.
I think you raise good points and accept them as such.
Minus the OC gas topic.....
I would then say that I'm comfortable with a 16" AR type weapon with a collapsible stock OR a shotgun with an 18" barrel as the go to IF need be and the handgun can get me there. In the areas I live in and also work around ranges go from arm-length out to about 200 + yards IF one assumes that it might be necessary to "make sure" whoever might be bugging out isn't just regrouping or repositioning for another shot of their own. My "average distance" locally is at least 75+ yards outdoors. Unless they are right at my property behind the chain link fence then any position they may have it at 40+ yards. Thus my tendency to choose a short rifle/carbine over most others IF possible.
I make sure that the 16" AR has a 20 rounder in the well so I can prone out if necessary even indoors and also that there is nothing on the shotgun to keep me from hanging up if I'm working around corners.
I agree that "tacticool" is way out of hand and all the "look good" stuff that's sometimes offered plain is impractical as it does not really work out too well in the real world.
 

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out of curoisity...what's the length and weight of you ebr rig...? not what I would think would be appropriate for HD unless using frangibles but if it is your goto...you have given it a lot of consideration as to how it works for you. I've got my socom down to 7lbs 6 oz, shortened the stock(Kalifornia) and looking into a frangible load. I don't consider it a goto primary HD but as a CQB aggressor weapon...yes. In my mind, my HD goto is hi-cap .45 or 9mm ...easier to handle in tight spaces.
M14 is not for home defense though hornady has created a HD round so I have heard with decreased penetration and severe expansion, My rifle is in
MK14 configuration with a 18" medium barrel and can ee collapsed to 38" weight is 11.3lbs with optic, eotech is 12.3 oz and if you choose a standard weight barrel 4-5oz so it could easily be a 10lb weapond with irons
 

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Everyone seems to be forgetting the Close Quarters part of CQB.

CQB is when you are inside buildings, manuevering structures, narrow streets and alleyways. The CQB build is one that is shortened up for quick handling and has very fast sighting systems (because things up close move very quickly).

I think a CQB M14 is a socom style rig with a large viewing area type red dot, like the EoTec, C-MORE, etc. It needs to be light, without a bunch of unnecessary weight, but with essetials like a light, laser and red dot. A breeching type muzzle device is a plus. Single point sling and a spare mag on the stock, maybe.

This is a gun that is still effective at 300 yards with the same optics, so a 2moa dot is a good idea. A 6 moa dot is worthless beyond 75 yards for any aimed fire where something better than a hit is needed. Point blank range on most 7.62x51 ammo is about 275 yards, so there is no need for a graduated reticle or anything.

Bayonets are nifty, but add length that will get you in trouble negotiating hall ways and doorways.
 

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I say 50m and inside is Close quarters, 50m to 200 is close range, 300 to 600 is mid range and 700 to 1000 is long range. 200 to 300 and 600 to 700 is where the shift is.

I thinks its wierd to have and exact distance where it changes. at 600 your midrange, but then at 601 your long range?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Everyone seems to be forgetting the Close Quarters part of CQB.

CQB is when you are inside buildings, manuevering structures, narrow streets and alleyways. The CQB build is one that is shortened up for quick handling and has very fast sighting systems (because things up close move very quickly).

I think a CQB M14 is a socom style rig with a large viewing area type red dot, like the EoTec, C-MORE, etc. It needs to be light, without a bunch of unnecessary weight, but with essetials like a light, laser and red dot. A breeching type muzzle device is a plus. Single point sling and a spare mag on the stock, maybe.

This is a gun that is still effective at 300 yards with the same optics, so a 2moa dot is a good idea. A 6 moa dot is worthless beyond 75 yards for any aimed fire where something better than a hit is needed. Point blank range on most 7.62x51 ammo is about 275 yards, so there is no need for a graduated reticle or anything.

Bayonets are nifty, but add length that will get you in trouble negotiating hall ways and doorways.
Well...maybe...from the responses, I get the impression that CQB elicits responses that are aggressive in application regarding the choice of equipment and somewhat differs from that for HD situations. I don't think they should be different. I think CQB should include both offensive and defensive concepts of equipment and dynamics. Maybe CQE (close quarter engagement) is a more appropriate word. The ranges are short and should dictate the primary/secondary equipment needed....longer distance capability is a bonus. This will vary from individual surroundings...I live in the city...long distance could be 100yds because that's all the clear view I have....in my home it's 5 to 40 feet. I like the idea of a short lightweight m14 with approriate ammo....(this is a m-14 forum...right?)but, I also realize that it may not be the first accessable piece of equipment in a CQE situation. Another consideration is ...I don't think that I would begin an engagement as an aggressor and so my initial action would be a result of something defensive and generally within close range. Is there anything wrong with what and how I am thinking?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I say 50m and inside is Close quarters, 50m to 200 is close range, 300 to 600 is mid range and 700 to 1000 is long range. 200 to 300 and 600 to 700 is where the shift is.

I thinks its wierd to have and exact distance where it changes. at 600 your midrange, but then at 601 your long range?
ok....with CQB as the primary objective, what would be your goto piece if you only had one weapon to choose?...your shift points suggest different equipment.
 

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ok....with CQB as the primary objective, what would be your goto piece if you only had one weapon to choose?...your shift points suggest different equipment.
What scenario are you doing this much thinking for, that you would only be able to carry one weapon?
 

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ok....with CQB as the primary objective, what would be your goto piece if you only had one weapon to choose?...your shift points suggest different equipment.
Too vague a question. Is it a home defense scenario? What is the construction of the building? Is it a rescue/take down scenario? Is it a bug out/grab what you can and move? Is it a deliberate/planned mission?

The only answer that would fit is the weapon you have on you, be it a pistol, shotgun, rifle, or a club. You had better understand the strengths and weaknesses of all you weapons and use them accordingly.
 
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