[Phil “Murphy” McGrath]

Many years ago I susgested a Carbon Fiber handguard and couldn't find anyone enterested in making one or many, I was given the advice too contact Vltor as both they and I were both located in Tucson Az. Couldn't get Vltor fired up as there were looking in another direction. Oh well life goes on........


Fast forward about a year later or so later one of the guy's here on the forum and his partner made a few aerospace carbon fiber stocks in the standard USGI profile they were painted a anti-corrosion green color. The two that I have seen first hand the inletting was rather course, understandable as that is very hard too control any liquid matting with a vacume.

One option too the stock owner is too glass bed the rifle, however the owner has too worry about cracking the gel-coat, not good in my opinion. So before everyone gets all reved up about a New Carbon Fiber Stock how's YOUR inletting look? and how many layers is the C/F, how thick is the gel-coat if someone desides too bed there rifle?

I don't mean too, Poo Poo your post but pretty on the outside is just frosting, I like Meat and potato's.

 

[reelmn]

I have done some fiberglass boat work before and to me it does not look like there were any gelcoating used, the lines of the carbon fibber cloth can still be seen.

 

[dtandy]

Phil,

Fair enough.... in response, there is no gel coating anywhere on the stock and I don't fill any part of the stock with epoxy and then machine or sand it out.

The inletted area on the stock is vacuum formed against a male tool that is machined on my CNC mill. The tool's shape is based on the inletted dimensions of the standard synthetic stock as provided by Springfield. Basically no sanding is required for the receiver to fit into the stock. The entire stock is either unidirectional (structural), 2x2 twill weave (cosmetic), or chopped carbon fiber with the exception that I do use Kevlar in the inletted area as it is a tougher, less brittle material than carbon fiber. You can sand as much as you want anywhere on the stock and you would be sanding carbon fiber or Kevlar composite (so always wear a good dust mask).

I've attached a snap shot of the inletted area on a prototype version. It has a few small air bubbles here and there. I sanded about 10 minutes to remove a few epoxy burrs and at a spot where I made a mistake on the shape of the tool (heh, that's what prototypes are for, right?) but other than that the receiver went right in. What you see is what comes off of the tool when the part is formed. I've already made some small changes to how the inletted part of the stock is made and I think the inletted surface will be just about as good as the exterior and it is as precise as the tool against which is is made.... so accurate to within what my CNC mill can do.

Regards,

Dave

Many years ago I susgested a Carbon Fiber handguard and couldn't find anyone enterested in making one or many, I was given the advice too contact Vltor as both they and I were both located in Tucson Az. Couldn't get Vltor fired up as there were looking in another direction. Oh well life goes on........


Fast forward about a year later or so later one of the guy's here on the forum and his partner made a few aerospace carbon fiber stocks in the standard USGI profile they were painted a anti-corrosion green color. The two that I have seen first hand the inletting was rather course, understandable as that is very hard too control any liquid matting with a vacume.

One option too the stock owner is too glass bed the rifle, however the owner has too worry about cracking the gel-coat, not good in my opinion. So before everyone gets all reved up about a New Carbon Fiber Stock how's YOUR inletting look? and how many layers is the C/F, how thick is the gel-coat if someone desides too bed there rifle?

I don't mean too, Poo Poo your post but pretty on the outside is just frosting, I like Meat and potato's.

 

[Phil “Murphy” McGrath]

Thanks, for the update.

 

[tonyben]

Thanks for the pics! it looks way better inside than my carbon kevlar stock did before I bedded it. If you're curious, here's the thread from the last person who made carbon kevlar stocks (besides McCann).

http://m14forum.com/m14/44261-aerospace-technology-used-stock.html

You might want to screen that thread to identify any potential hurdles you might overcome.

Hueygunner insisted that the stocks did not need to be bedded, but I still routed mine and bedded it a year ago. If anyone wants to bed your stocks, it can be a bear to work with the carbon fiber. Again, there WILL be differences in receiver geometry. The new Rock-Ola receivers have wider legs (from front to rear) and stock liners are having to be modified to get them to fit.

Other people will want heavier contours, like the heavy McMillan stocks as well as stocks with adjustable combs. Holes pre-drilled for rails and bipods will be a plus.

Also, can you include a pic of the inner forearm area? My stock was one of the CF stocks that Phil observed. Mine is either cracked at the pistol grip, or the stock flexes in that area and the paint chips. Either way, it's still a solid stock and I just shot my best groups with it; 20 rounds in 1.7", 5 rounds at 1.1".

Tony.

 

[dtandy]

Tony,

Thanks for the post. Here is an image of the inside of the forend of the prototype stock. It is quite smooth and the surface quality very good. The high pressure bladder molding process helps with that. Also, using an unscientific grab, twist, and pull approach the forend on my carbon fiber stock is much stiffer than the forend on the synthetic stock. The same applies in the inletted area. I can squeeze the synthetic stock and see it move whereas the carbon fiber stock doesn't budge.

My current thinking is that initially I am going to offer two versions of the stock... both based on my current mold (which is very close to the dimensions of the Springfield synthetic stock). One version will be fitted with Picatinny rails on the forend (one each side, one bottom - capable of supporting a bipod attachment) and QD fittings on the forend and butt. The second version will be more traditional with the option for rails and traditional sling fittings front and back. Both will have a metal buttplate (adjustable length) to which one can add a recoil pad if desired. If the demand justifies, I may come up with a pistol grip version with an adjustable cheek piece.

Also, I am working on a carbon fiber composite hand guard that I may offer as an option.

Regards,

Dave Tandy

 

[neiltus]

Just so you know, buttplates can be an issue for the service rifle crowd. I think the only legal items are the m14 plate and the Garand plate. You might want to get a pair of these and see if you can incorporate them into the design where users have a choice of plates.

The Garand plate would be a simpler attachment. Personally, I prefer this plate. The M14 plate requires some relief.

I could be wrong on the legality of the plates for NRA/CMP stuff as I have not looked at that portion in the rules to see if it has been relaxed in the past few years.

It's been a long time since I worked with Carbon Fiber…I assume it could be carefully drilled to allow for an aftermarket rail up front if needed by the user. If the drilling is easy, I would probably go the route of letting the user choose their rail than opt for one all chunked out for those who prefer less. People can be VERY picky when it comes to rail placement, angles, etc-so it might be less headache for you in the short run.

Also keep in mind that buyers of stocks tend to go in one of three directions-EBR, wood profile or bedding fiberglass. Don't try to have one model satisfy all of these options. As a business owner/designer-I think you know this.

Keep in mind, this is just my input. Two things I would like to see to purchase from my perspective are - one that I could use for NRA/CMP (see buttplate stuff), one that I could use with an optic mount and an adjustable comb-because what is out there without going to EBR route just plain sucks-aftermarket pads.

 

[Scout1833]

Whoa… That stock is SICK!!!

An EBR version would be so much better to cut the weight down.

 

[tokiwartooth]

Do you have an idea on price point? I would say you want to be competitive with McMillan, but that's your call. Why not a black anodized aluminum version of a Garand buttplate? It will keep it light.

 

[adrbe]

I like it, and would be interested if the price is right.

 

[dtandy]

I haven't set the price yet but it will be competitive with the other similar options out there. I am planning on offering some introductory pricing hovering around $475 for the first handful of customers.

I am doing some more testing and changing the mold shape just a bit. My objective is to start offering for sale the stocks in January.

I'll post more pictures soon as I am hoping to be able to lay up another stock later this week.

Dave

 

[dsdmmat]

Well when you get into full production, maybe we can convince you to make some for the M1 Garand as well.

 

[Chuy]

still waiting, is there going to be enough material to sand down to install cluster rail set for SOCOM 2

 

[patriot armory 308]

Tony,

Thanks for the post. Here is an image of the inside of the forend of the prototype stock. It is quite smooth and the surface quality very good. The high pressure bladder molding process helps with that. Also, using an unscientific grab, twist, and pull approach the forend on my carbon fiber stock is much stiffer than the forend on the synthetic stock. The same applies in the inletted area. I can squeeze the synthetic stock and see it move whereas the carbon fiber stock doesn't budge.

My current thinking is that initially I am going to offer two versions of the stock... both based on my current mold (which is very close to the dimensions of the Springfield synthetic stock). One version will be fitted with Picatinny rails on the forend (one each side, one bottom - capable of supporting a bipod attachment) and QD fittings on the forend and butt. The second version will be more traditional with the option for rails and traditional sling fittings front and back. Both will have a metal buttplate (adjustable length) to which one can add a recoil pad if desired. If the demand justifies, I may come up with a pistol grip version with an adjustable cheek piece.

Also, I am working on a carbon fiber composite hand guard that I may offer as an option.

Regards,

Dave Tandy

I am just going by the photo so correct me if i am wrong, it looks like there is not enough material at the tip of the fore end to securely mount the front ferrule. How about a photo of this area?

 

[dtandy]

I am just going by the photo so correct me if i am wrong, it looks like there is not enough material at the tip of the fore end to securely mount the front ferrule. How about a photo of this area?

I am laying up another stock later this week and I'll post some images of it once I have it done. I've received a lot of good feedback in this forum and I am incorporating much of it as I continue to develop the production version of the stock. I'm not an M1A expert so admittedly I am figuring out a few things as I go along. This forum has been great to help me take the stock from my initial concept into what is going to really work well for the M1A crowd. Fortunately, my business is slammed right now with orders for my bread and butter products but this keeps me away (and my machines occupied) from working all day every day on this stock (which is a lot more fun). Keep the comments coming but don't assume the stock in the images I've posted so far is the final version. Aesthetically the outside and inletted appearance of the production version will be nearly identical to the images I've posted but the inside of the forend will be slightly different, namely thicker to accommodate rail mounting points.

I am looking at making two versions of the stock. One version (the first production version) will be nearly identical to the USGI stock with a M1A butt plate and standard sling swivels. It will be thick enough to support rails and QD swivels. I am trying to keep it legal for service rifle shooters. The second version will be more oriented towards adding tactical accessories and it may have a pistol grip. Nothing is set in stone, yet.

Dave

 

[Wolley]

I'm liking it.
As a Service rifle competitor I would like to see it built with enough relief in the correct areas to bed the action into the stock.
I know nothing about laying up carbon fiber but I'm guessing that it can't be filed, sanded or otherwise machined after being removed from the final mold.

Be sure and incorporate areas where weight can be added in both ends. And of course sling attachment points.
And we are limited to two styles of butt plate. Either the stock plate or the M1 Garand plate. Nothing else!

 

[Putty]

I was going to say that a stock that dialed in would be selling itself short without a matching hand guard. But it looks like you have that covered. Nice work, can't wait to get more info as you refine it. Lots of good suggestions here.

 

[tonyben]

Can you also give us a pic where the front of the receiver meets the beginning of the forearm? One nice option (I can dream, right?) would to have this area built up before bedding so all I have to do is skim bed that area. If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically bedding the front of the receiver in the stock channel around the magazine well and operating spring and guide.

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. Here's also a picture of the bedding areas on a standard non-lugged M14 receiver. These are the areas we would need pre-routed.

Tony.

 

[tonyben]

Here are more areas that someone would bed on a bedding job. Basically around the receiver legs and the entire contact points where the receiver meets the stock and the 3 points where the trigger group contacts the bottom of the stock.

Tony.

 

[Mocos]

Here are more areas that someone would bed on a bedding job. Basically around the receiver legs and the entire contact points where the receiver meets the stock and the 3 points where the trigger group contacts the bottom of the stock.

Tony.

maybe you might consider allowing the op to actually mic your stock so that he can compare yours with what he has created....pictures are fine but having an actual example in hand would would convey the concept better than words or pictures....