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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Given what I am describing below where on the Internet do you think I would be best to post this stuff for sale given that I am NOT trying to take advantage of anyone or attempt to get someone to "bid up" projectiles to some astronomic price in the middle of a component shortage? Small shop/hand made projectiles are NOT sold at bulk market prices..but at the same time some of the pricing I've seen of late has been - well - shocking and I want NO PART of that on my own conscience.
I make some closely lot-matched and high grade versions of what I suspect were Vernon Speer's first 22 caliber projectiles based on fired 22 LR brass cases. This type of projectile really does expand very readily in the 3,000 FPS MV range as I have often witnessed when these are shot out of 223 Rem class cartridges at desert jack rabbits.
I first made these just to work out how to make high quality projectiles in the first place as I did not want to waste really expensive ultra pure copper strip learning how to make projectiles. There is NOTHING "turn key" about projectile manufacturing no matter what you see written about it. I have found they really are useful if one is interested in a high fragmentation/low penetration heavy-for-length projectile and so I am making up lots of them for sale to others.
These projectiles are made on professional hydraulic and other equipment and I am a University trained and experienced scientist that understands how QA/QC works, etc.
These projectiles are a PITA to manufacture due at least to the fragile nature of the cartridge brass jackets so I just make lots that end up with average weights at about 63 grains as a non customizable product.
I have an ammunition type FFL and will be selling them through a corporation, this will not be a person-to-person sale. I have not used any online selling services like auction sites and have no idea if this is an important point or not.
I'm not going to set up a website just to sell these things. They are unique and interesting projectiles but are time consuming and costly to make as a regular product and thus are not good candidates for a regular line product.
....
I found this site looking for somewhere where people LIKED and SUPPORTED M14/M1A use and THAT is the primary reason I'm here.
I also don't see myself become a site sponsor either and don't want to become a cause for concern to the site sponsors or the other site users. As I am doing this through a corporation....I'm not sure what this site would think about that anyway. Thus I'm looking for advice for where this kind of thing IS workable and am hoping to get a steer from people here to where that might be/is.
...
I like ammo and if you wondered before you can see from the length of this post I like to write about it too.
 

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I would sell them on an auction site like gunbroker or something, if you are worried about over charging, just put in a buy now option for a price you think is fair and it should keep the auction from going over that ammount.
 

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Interesting.

I would try some of the smaller web-based companies that sell handloading supplies, like Bartlett etc. They might want a sample box to check them out. An on-line business like that might be able to sell as many as you can make.

You would have to find a price point that would probably be less than the "big name brand" bullets, but still allows the reseller enough of a profit margin to make it worth their time.

What kind of accuracy are you seeing? Can you market these as "ultra-premium" as in better than Sierra for a premium price?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Interesting.

I would try some of the smaller web-based companies that sell handloading supplies, like Bartlett etc. They might want a sample box to check them out. An on-line business like that might be able to sell as many as you can make.

You would have to find a price point that would probably be less than the "big name brand" bullets, but still allows the reseller enough of a profit margin to make it worth their time.

What kind of accuracy are you seeing? Can you market these as "ultra-premium" as in better than Sierra for a premium price?
This is just the projectiles only and not loaded ammo.
I keep these things to tolerances that are typically like these inside of a lot:
Weights within an extreme spread of about 0.3 grains.
OALs to vary no more than about +/- 0.001 around the lot mean value.
The Lot OAL's usually end up between 0.680 and 0.700 and as there is no plastic tip they are short for length and thus it's easier to get enough gunpowder in to a 223 Rem case to reach the 3,000 FPS MV that also represents the suggested upper velocity limit for this projectile type.
They are of course manufactured in lots according to written and strict manufacturing procedures.
Etc.
....
I have measured a LOT of commercial projectiles and thus actually have data to compare with my own stuff that is obtained on the same measuring instruments that I myself use for operations so I'm not relying on what is published by others, etc.
I have found there are predictable and clear differences between the various classes of market projectiles i.e. "bulk" like Rem/Win puts sells in case of thousands, between "100 per box" offerings, and also of course between the smaller bench-rest operations, etc.
I'm not implying that any of the above or any other reputable manufacturers make "bad stuff", only that products are made to meet various requirements and thus to various levels of precision, etc, in order to be cost effective, etc.
The projectiles I'm discussing exceed the precision seen in bulk projectiles and often also those seen in the "100 per box" level but I do not feel comfortable comparing them to actual match projectiles such as those produced by Sierra, Hornaday, Speer, Nosler, etc, in part because those projectiles are not produced with a terminal result in mind and in part of course due to those projectiles being produced with entirely virgin jackets designed and produced to be dimensionally precise with all other considerations being secondary.
.....
With the above written:
1- No matter how they are processed fired RF cases were NOT made to be jackets and thus anyone advertising them as being "match grade" and equivalent to match grade projectiles is clearly misinformed...or worse.
2- I'm hesitant to quote any group sizes as there are twists out there between the needed 1:9 up to the 1:14's and all kinds of weapons and thus all sorts of conditions that would result in varied group sizes too.
I have seen group sizes and reliable reports of decent groups out of bench rest rifles using this projectile type and suspect this has been achieved with projectiles manufactured under QC/QA a lot less stringent than what I have been using. Frankly, there is NO WAY a major manufacturer could make money doing what I'm doing now at a price the mass market would accept. And there will come a day when I'm not able to pay attention to making these things for sale to others.....
3- The group I have been in has been firing these out of twists between 1:9 to 1:14 in weapons that are single shots, bolt actions, AR's, and Mini-14's and I have not received any complaints at all about groups sizes, accuracy, etc.
During one chronograph test conducted to evaluate twist rates I used preloaded 223 Rem cases that were loaded to a verified muzzle velocity of 3,000 FPS as verified by an O-35 chronograph. When this same ammo was shot out of the 1:7 AR during the same session....all projectiles passed the chronograph screens but in a ten shot string not one appeared on the 100 yard target. Thus I do not suggest using this type of projectile in a twist faster than 1:9.
4- These are really "functional" projectiles that I suspect are best suited to shooting at varmints, using for low penetration/high fragmentation loadings, etc. When used at about 3,000 FPS MV and shot at large desert jackrabbits at ranges from PB to about 100+ yards in our group experience a COM hit results in fur literally flying and the results look more like a 22-250 or 220 Swift hit them than a 223 Rem.
I suspect they may also work in something like a 222 Rem...but as I have not verified how low the MV can go and still get the results I've written about below I'll have to see what happens when someone might try them in a case of somewhat smaller capacity than a 223 Rem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I would sell them on an auction site like gunbroker or something, if you are worried about over charging, just put in a buy now option for a price you think is fair and it should keep the auction from going over that amount.
Thanks for the tip. I did not know you could just put a set price and be done with it.
I'm in it to make a profit of course but disagree with some of the price gouging I've seen.
Also, of course, there are some shady operators taking advantage of people on auction sites....which I think is sad. The shooting sports are diminished when this goes on intentionally and I don't want to be involved with it.
 

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OK, you're clearly a scientist... now you are trying to become a manufacturer, and you need a marketing department. As a small business, the marketing department is you.

You need a marketing plan.

The first thing you need to do is clarify what these bullets do better than the competition. This is called "relevant features and benefits." What are the features or qualities of these bullets that set them apart from the competition, and what does that mean to the customer? Or, "THIS is why you should buy my bullets instead of the others."

Also during this process, you should figure out what your bullets do well, and therefore who to try to sell them to. Identify your market. It sounds like your market is not bench rest shooters, but more likely varmint hunters and maybe plinkers.

Relevant features and benefits might be something like these, minus fancy marketing speak:

These bullets are very cheap and they shoot OK, so you get a bargain.
or
These bullets are comparably priced with the other guys' bulk bullets, but they perform better on varmints, so you get a better value for your dollar.
or
These bullets may cost the same as the other guys' but they are more accurate and they are devastating on varmints, so you will be the envy of your varmint shooting buddies...

etc.

Notice there is always a statement at the end containing the word "you." You are always speaking to the customer, and even after a long scientific explanation of how the jackets are precisely formed with hydraulic tools etc, the customer is left thinking, "So what?" You always have to follow up with a statement of "Here's how that benefits YOU, the customer."

So you need a clear statement of what important features your bullets have, why they are useful or important to the customer, and then you need a price point at which the balance tips in your favor and the customer would rather buy your bullets to attain the benefits you promised rather then buy the other guys' bullets.

The online auction market is interesting, becuase you don't really have to target a certain market. The online market is so huge, that if you do a good job describing the relevant features and benefits the target market will come to you. Quite honestly though, you would need to attract your buyers in the item title. You get about 10 words to make people get interested enough to click on your sales auction to hear the rest of your message.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
OK, you're clearly a scientist... now you are trying to become a manufacturer, and you need a marketing department. As a small business, the marketing department is you.

You need a marketing plan.

The first thing you need to do is clarify what these bullets do better than the competition. This is called "relevant features and benefits." What are the features or qualities of these bullets that set them apart from the competition, and what does that mean to the customer? Or, "THIS is why you should buy my bullets instead of the others."

Also during this process, you should figure out what your bullets do well, and therefore who to try to sell them to. Identify your market. It sounds like your market is not bench rest shooters, but more likely varmint hunters and maybe plinkers.

Relevant features and benefits might be something like these, minus fancy marketing speak:

These bullets are very cheap and they shoot OK, so you get a bargain.
or
These bullets are comparably priced with the other guys' bulk bullets, but they perform better on varmints, so you get a better value for your dollar.
or
These bullets may cost the same as the other guys' but they are more accurate and they are devastating on varmints, so you will be the envy of your varmint shooting buddies...

etc.

Notice there is always a statement at the end containing the word "you." You are always speaking to the customer, and even after a long scientific explanation of how the jackets are precisely formed with hydraulic tools etc, the customer is left thinking, "So what?" You always have to follow up with a statement of "Here's how that benefits YOU, the customer."

So you need a clear statement of what important features your bullets have, why they are useful or important to the customer, and then you need a price point at which the balance tips in your favor and the customer would rather buy your bullets to attain the benefits you promised rather then buy the other guys' bullets.

The on-line auction market is interesting, because you don't really have to target a certain market. The online market is so huge, that if you do a good job describing the relevant features and benefits the target market will come to you. Quite honestly though, you would need to attract your buyers in the item title. You get about 10 words to make people get interested enough to click on your sales auction to hear the rest of your message.
Thank you for your considered post!
I tried to correctly ID that I was not doing this on a personal level and not doing just a very few at a time with a reloading press and that was what some of the extra explanation was doing before. I'm discussing this among very learned people and thus also needed to offer up some background so that you could all figure out what I was asking for and going on about.
Just short of proprietary information I'm willing to share what I know so that others can figure out what projectile is right for them no matter if I make it or it comes from someone else. Marketing hype disgusts me as only a scientist can be disgusted with marketing hyperbole and I'm all about getting past that and onto the real information...which is in part what makes this website so useful to people. We discuss the REAL world and do not have much patience with marketing hype.
You're right when you point out that my explanations of "how made" don't mean a lot when people are trying to figure out what you're offering and what it's good for.
I will get some lots online and see what will happen. If nothing else, this should be interesting......
 

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I have been seriously looking at doing this myself, just wondering if the 1000 dollar investment would be worth it. The process looks pretty simple. I would be making them for myself and my son to use.

Good Luck in your Venture!!!!
 

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I have been seriously looking at doing this myself, just wondering if the 1000 dollar investment would be worth it. The process looks pretty simple. I would be making them for myself and my son to use.

Good Luck in your Venture!!!!
If you like to experiment, do it. Swaging is a very flexible method.

If you shoot a lot and you have access to lead and jackets that is a big reason to do it! The tools can be passed down to your son. It should be easy to pay for the dies a few times over.

This may help:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?41-Swaging
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have been seriously looking at doing this myself, just wondering if the 1000 dollar investment would be worth it. The process looks pretty simple. I would be making them for myself and my son to use.

Good Luck in your Venture!!!!
I'm not sure what your definition is of "worth it".
The process IS conceptually simple.....but I would worry about things like weight consistency, etc., even if I were only doing this as a personal venture.
For a backup SHTF thing it might be a good investment IF you were going to be staying in one place.
Otherwise, I suspect you will be far, far past a grand before you get projectiles that you are really happy with even if only for personal use.
That $1000 will buy a LOT of 22 caliber Rem, Win, Horn bulk projectiles that will likely satisfy you and not take up a lot of your time manufacturing your own.
Thanks for you well wishes!
 
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