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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
For those who demand to know what a barrel or rifle is worth, and for those trying to discover what all this means when asking questions about barrels and accuracy in general....

An interesting article and info. Info I happen to subscribe to and have stated in the forums when these questions arise...

Pick up just about any gun magazine these days and you will see ads for MOA accuracy, guaranteed, out of the box. MOA means “minute of angle,” which is 1/360th of a circle [SIC - Correction required. Actually 1/21,600th of a circle or 1/60 of 1 degree]. It seems like a great selling point and I’m sure it sells a lot of guns, but I wondered if the claims were actually true. If you don’t understand MOA it is understandable. what does a fraction of a circle have to do with the accuracy of a rilfe? But we’ll get to that.

Not everyone is capable of shooting MOA, even with the most accurate rifle, so I employed our local neighborhood US Army Sniper (and GunsAmerica Magazine contributor), Ben Becker. The results are astounding. All of the rifles we tested (and we didn’t just test rifles that advertise MOA) shot into or nearly into a minute of angle at 100 yards. Some even did it for 10 and more rounds in a row, without cool down. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we are living in the Golden Age of firearms manufacturing. This is incredible stuff.


Continued...

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/minute-of-angle-moa-accuracy-out-of-the-box/

Please note, I think this information is generally true in terms of barreled bolt-gun receivers, particularly floated barrels of any new make and manufacturer. I do not necessarily believe it is acate for a 14 that has other extraneous factors that are problematic to minute and subminute accuracy. My point of posting this information is in terms of barrels. Most barrels of today, if not effected by other factors, will hold MOA out of the box. For the 14, however, when you start sticking gas cylinders, op rod guides and whatnot on the barrel, accuracy begins to degrade...
 

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Neat article, thanks for posting. I should send this to my uncle, who always complains he doesn't have good ammo! DI2
 

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Good stuff. It's a great endorsement for Hornady, too:

...testing with brown box Hornady Ammunition
I always question claims of MOA with M193 on AR15.com because the spec. says:

The accuracy requirement from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA). "Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius, which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA.
 

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James, I got the same e-mail. The rifle with the hang tag pictured in the first photo appears to be some version of a Winchester Model 70 that was sold with a heavy stainless barrel and aluminum-pillared H-S Precision synthetic stock in the latter '90's. Mine was called the "Stealth" model, .223 Wylde chamber 9 twist 26" bbl. Many shooters acquired these and attached a grip rail, clip guide, and metallic sights to shoot them as NRA Match Rifles. They weren't cheap but not as high $ as a Frank White spacegun upper with Krieger's barrel. I went back and looked at some of my old targets shot at the bench. With a 6x-18x scope mounted and the 75 gr. Hornady hollow point over Varget, 10 shots inside 1" at 100 yds/meters came to be expected. Black Hills shot equally good. 68 gr XTP's shot almost as tight. In fact, I routinely shot 10 rd groups in order to read hot barrel shot dispersion, which was nil. If that particular rifle is available again from the new(est) Winchester, it's worth a look. I believe they also barreled it for .22-250 and .308. Guess I need to shoot this one again sometime, had all but forgotten about it cuz I never tricked it out beyond minor trigger sharpening.
 

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For those who demand to know what a barrel or rifle is worth, and for those trying to discover what all this means when asking questions about barrels and accuracy in general....

An interesting article and info. Info I happen to subscribe to and have stated in the forums when these questions arise...

Pick up just about any gun magazine these days and you will see ads for MOA accuracy, guaranteed, out of the box. MOA means “minute of angle,” which is 1/360th of a circle [SIC - Correction required. Actually 1/21,600th of a circle or 1/60 of 1 degree]. It seems like a great selling point and I’m sure it sells a lot of guns, but I wondered if the claims were actually true. If you don’t understand MOA it is understandable. what does a fraction of a circle have to do with the accuracy of a rilfe? But we’ll get to that.

Not everyone is capable of shooting MOA, even with the most accurate rifle, so I employed our local neighborhood US Army Sniper (and GunsAmerica Magazine contributor), Ben Becker. The results are astounding. All of the rifles we tested (and we didn’t just test rifles that advertise MOA) shot into or nearly into a minute of angle at 100 yards. Some even did it for 10 and more rounds in a row, without cool down. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we are living in the Golden Age of firearms manufacturing. This is incredible stuff.


Continued...

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/minute-of-angle-moa-accuracy-out-of-the-box/



I've been following these acuracy threads with interest.

It seems that the article doesn't support your previous opinions of those who profess to have shot MOA or sub-MOA.

Why th change of opinion?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I've been following these acuracy threads with interest.

It seems that the article doesn't support you previous opinions that those who profess to have shot MOA or sub-MOA are liars.

Why th change of opinion?
I have never, ever professed a rifle is not capable of sub-MOA when fired from a rest or by a skilled shooter, in fact have done the opposite. The closest thing that I have ever done in that regard is sub-MOA guns is complaining about manufactures who gaurantee, 1/4 MOA guns, which with a 308 caliber bullet is hard to measure and also hard to produce for most people. HOWEVER, even in that same thread, if you actually read it, I said MOST guns will shoot sub-MOA if put in a rest, regardless of who made it, as long as the barrel is decent... So why dont you show me what it is you are talking about....?

Guns that shoot sub-MOA and shooters who claim to shoot sub-MOA groups while standing or whatever are two different things...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
James, I got the same e-mail. The rifle with the hang tag pictured in the first photo appears to be some version of a Winchester Model 70 that was sold with a heavy stainless barrel and aluminum-pillared H-S Precision synthetic stock in the latter '90's. Mine was called the "Stealth" model, .223 Wylde chamber 9 twist 26" bbl. Many shooters acquired these and attached a grip rail, clip guide, and metallic sights to shoot them as NRA Match Rifles. They weren't cheap but not as high $ as a Frank White spacegun upper with Krieger's barrel. I went back and looked at some of my old targets shot at the bench. With a 6x-18x scope mounted and the 75 gr. Hornady hollow point over Varget, 10 shots inside 1" at 100 yds/meters came to be expected. Black Hills shot equally good. 68 gr XTP's shot almost as tight. In fact, I routinely shot 10 rd groups in order to read hot barrel shot dispersion, which was nil. If that particular rifle is available again from the new(est) Winchester, it's worth a look. I believe they also barreled it for .22-250 and .308. Guess I need to shoot this one again sometime, had all but forgotten about it cuz I never tricked it out beyond minor trigger sharpening.
Hey - Interesting info. Thanks! I have a factory Savage 10FP factory barrel, and its a 1/2 MOA gun at $800 out the door! I have an Enfield 1917 Eddystone with a 70 year old barrel, yep, it too drives tacks. From a rest, I can keep them round about an inch....
 

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I have never, ever professed a rifle is not capable of sub-MOA when fired from a rest or by a skilled shooter, in fact have done the opposite. The closest thing that I have ever done in that regard is sub-MOA guns is complaining about manufactures who gaurantee, 1/4 MOA guns, which with a 308 caliber bullet is hard to measure and also hard to produce for most people. HOWEVER, even in that same thread, if you actually read it, I said MOST guns will shoot sub-MOA if put in a rest, regardless of who made it, as long as the barrel is decent... So why dont you show me what it is you are talking about....?

Guns that shoot sub-MOA and shooters who claim to shoot sub-MOA groups while standing or whatever are two different things...
Never saw a rifle shoot MOA or Sub-MOA without someone behind the triggerGI2
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Never saw a rifle shoot MOA or Sub-MOA without someone behind the triggerGI2
The quote you are responding to is:

I have never, ever professed a rifle is not capable of sub-MOA
I did however update my thoughts on this in terms of the 14 in my opening thread. Context matters, Ill be the first to admit....
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Actually, I was referring to this statement.
I amended my opening statement to this. Yes there is a contradiction. I dont think most gas guns with their operating systems behave the same. If you took just a barrel and a 14 receiver and a bolt that stayed in battery after firing, it would if put in a vise. When we add to the platform, its as I mentioned above...
 

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Well I did see a gun shoot sub MOA without a shooter behind or at the trigger. It was about six months ago at a firing range in CA. It was on, or in a huge piece of steel, bolted down and fired with a remote control device. Kinda like turning on and off your TV. I asked the guy what he was doing and he looked at me sort of funny and said ' I'm shooting' and laughed. Later he said it was a testing device (which he had a name for but I don't recall at the moment) it was designed to take the shooter out of the equation to evaluate the true accuracy of a barrel. It looked to be about 150 lbs or so and very shinny. No I wasn't drunk, it really happened and I have a witness.
 
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