[vjmoose]

Hello everyone
I thought I would post my views on the AR-15A4 and M4. First a little background on me. I am a gulf war veteran with two tours in the gulf war I’m also a retired deputy sheriff so I know the M16 and AR platform extremely well.
The M4 comes in two ways for civilian use either a 16” barrel or a 14.5 inch barrel the majority of civilians seem to be buying the M4 more then the A4. Personally I believe the civilian buy this because that is what the majority of police and military use. So why do the police and military use the M4 mainly because it is a CBQ weapon which is fine but you lose muzzle velocity and energy 300 to 400 FPS. Keep in mind the 5.56 was designed for a 20” barrel I was issued a M16 20” in the gulf war.
now for the A4. Although I have a colt M4 I prefer my Colt A4. I have cleared many houses with my M4 when I was a deputy I can assure you I can do the same with a A4 the 20” barrel dose not hinder my mobility even in tight quarters. My advice to anyone thinking about getting a AR-15 is to get a A4 first then a M4.
I personally disagree with the military ever adopting the m4. Yes I have one because I used one as a deputy. The A4 gives you longer range much higher velocity softer recoil. Again I am speaking from real world use both in combat and urban. This is just my opinion hope this helps

 

[boltaction]

Hello,
Longer is better... So, they say.

 

[vjmoose]

Hello,
Longer is better... So, they say.

Absolutely

 

[Rifleman-7.62]

5.56 x 45 cartridge should have never been adopted as the main military cartridge in my opinion. A cartridge like the .277 Wolverine (6.8 x 39 millimeter) with a 100 grain bullet using a sixteen inch barrel would have been much better. (That cartridge has about a 2,600 feet per second muzzle velocity).

 

[vjmoose]

5.56 x 45 cartridge should have never been adopted as the main military cartridge in my opinion. A cartridge like the .277 Wolverine (7 x 39 millimeter) with a 100 grain bullet using a sixteen inch barrel would have been much better. (That cartridge has about a 2,600 feet per second muzzle velocity).

I tend to disagree on that. The 5.56 mm with a velocity of 3200 FPS is absolutely devastating to the human body. Weight is a big factor I was issued a minimum of 125 rounds sometimes more. I’ve seen what the 5.56 will do to a human body definitely different then what you see on ballistic gel

 

[jarhead714]

Compared to any M16 the M4 is superior in every aspect except shooting bullets and the distance between the tip of your bayonet and that which you wish to stick it with.( 4 inches less.)😉

 

[vjmoose]

Compared to any M16 the M4 is superior in every aspect except shooting bullets and the distance between the tip of your bayonet and that which you wish to stick it with.( 4 inches less.)😉

I disagree with a M4 with a 14.5” barrel you are loosing a significant amount of velocity and decreasing your effective range by a good bit.

 

[jarhead714]

I disagree with a M4 with a 14.5” barrel you are loosing a significant amount of velocity and decreasing your effective range by a good bit.

Read the post again. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Where I do disagree with you is the clearing rooms part. That over all length with the shorter barrel and collapsed stock makes a big difference. As an overall fighting weapon, the M16A2/A4 is superior and probably the most accurate general issue service rifle ever fielded by any army.

 

[vjmoose]

Read the post again. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Where I do disagree with you is the clearing rooms part. That over all length with the shorter barrel and collapsed stock makes a big difference. As an overall fighting weapon, the M16A2/A4 is superior and probably the most accurate general issue service rifle ever fielded by any army.

My apologies yes I agree however I found clearing rooms with a A4 really wasn’t any difference than a M4 for me personally however for others they may prefer the M4. For CQB sure the M4 is fine although my personal preference would still be the A4. I was shocked that the USMC is now switching to the M4.

 

[brianns]

Compared to any M16 the M4 is superior in every aspect except shooting bullets and the distance between the tip of your bayonet and that which you wish to stick it with.( 4 inches less.)😉

I read the above to describe the M4 as only good for putting a bayonet.

I disagree with a M4 with a 14.5” barrel you are loosing a significant amount of velocity and decreasing your effective range by a good bit.

I agree. For small bullets you need the velocity to get the max energy. But I think the trade off was mobility over engagement at longer distances. Sure people can move through buildings and rooms with a 20” rifle but it’s probably better with something shorter. It might be a little easier getting in an out of vehicles too.

 

[Rifleman-7.62]

As an overall fighting weapon, the M16A2/A4 is superior and probably the most accurate general issue service rifle ever fielded by any army.

I have AR-15 rifles and I like them (they are accurate) but I think they are less reliable than piston driven rifles. Direct impingement work good if they are kept clean in my experience. If you are firing dirty steel cased ammunition through them a decent quality AR-15 will likely get you at least a few hundred rounds without cleaning. Decent quality brass cased ammo will get you a lot more shots without cleaning on a direct impingement AR-15.

Maybe the quality of rifles I have and the ammo I use is just too poor thus affecting reliability.

 

[vjmoose]

I have AR-15 rifles and I like them (they are accurate) but I think they are less reliable than piston driven rifles. Direct impingement work good if they are kept clean in my experience. If you are firing dirty steel cased ammunition through them a decent quality AR-15 will likely get you at least a few hundred rounds without cleaning. Decent quality brass cased ammo will get you a lot more shots without cleaning on a direct impingement AR-15.

Maybe the quality of rifles I have and the ammo I use is just too poor thus affecting reliability.

AR-15s don’t do all that great with cheap ammo or steel. Keep in mind the AR-15 was never designed to use steel case or cheap ammo. My m16 in the gulf war went through several sand storms without cleaning and was fine. I barely cleaned mine and no reliability issues at all. My personal guns I clean after every use so I’ve never had a problem personally I don’t think a piston AR is all that better then direct impingement

 

[Rifleman-7.62]

AR-15s don’t do all that great with cheap ammo or steel. Keep in mind the AR-15 was never designed to use steel case or cheap ammo. My M-16 in the gulf war went through several sand storms without cleaning and was fine. I barely cleaned mine and no reliability issues at all.

How many rounds did you fire without cleaning your issued M-16 rifle in the Gulf War?

 

[MTpockets]

🍿

Following...

 

[M11293]

5.56 x 45 cartridge should have never been adopted as the main military cartridge in my opinion. A cartridge like the .277 Wolverine (6.8 x 39 millimeter) with a 100 grain bullet using a sixteen inch barrel would have been much better. (That cartridge has about a 2,600 feet per second muzzle velocity).

Yeah, the Swedes figured out that intermediate sized bullets are the best ballistically (both trajectory and terminal ballistics over distance).. they figured that out over 130 years ago with the 6.5x55 Swede.

The irony is that 130 years later, the US is now exploring and implementing similar designs.

 

[vjmoose]

How many rounds did you fire without cleaning your issued M-16 rifle in the Gulf War?

Good question I really never counted is say 500 rounds

 

[Den308]

20" camp here.

 

[Jeremy21]

A4 without a doubt

 

[Shortbox4x4]

My .02 and stuff that we’ve done and or involved in the past and present.

The 6.8 is a waste of time ballistically etc…if your going to drop from a 30cal to a smaller caliber…6.5mm is my vote. What I see the military doing now by writing a spec of a 140gr bullet at 3000fps out of a 6.8x51mm case it is way overpressure to get those numbers out of a standard size case like the 308 case. Pressures are running at 80k and change. Barrel life is severely compromised. If I recall correctly on a combat gun they are only saying 4K rounds. That’s combat accuracy and not good accuracy. Good accuracy which is 1moa is lost by the time barrels hit a 150 rounds with standard cm and standard ss barrel material. I’m also worried about the guy pulling the trigger as well as possible component failure. Let’s face it and I will quote the SS guys, “we we’re not taught anything about gun maintenance as a standard infantryman.“ So if a guy doesn’t keep up with cleaning the gun/barrel…from data I’ve seen the pressure goes up past 80k.

Yes the military is using both 260 Rem and 6.5CM in gas and bolt guns. Both are equal. One isn’t better accuracy wise and overall performance wise. Yes the Swedes had it figured out a long time ago with the 6.5x55. The problem I see right now with the 6.5 being used is they are wanting to go to barrels shorter than 20” (16” and even shorter possibly….if shorter than 18” stick with a 308 gun!) and they are coughing up performance and depending on which caliber there are reliability issues due to fouling (carbon) as there are not suitable powders to get the velocity they want without having issues. At least powders currently available. Rumor is there is work being done for more options on the powder side of things as well. They need to keep the barrel length at least 20” for the 6.5’s in my opinion at least for now.

We’ve made special runs of 5.56 barrels that finished at 14.5” to help the Spec forces and Ranger guys achieve a given velocity with a heavy bullet load. The 5.56 is a good round but there are better options out there. These are guys/operators that have more available to them then the standard infantryman. So not standard issue stuff.

The Brits where on a better track with the 280 British or some call it the 280 Enfield etc…prior to 7.62 nato being adopted. A 140gr bullet at about 2550fps / 7mm…very good ballistics with better energy and it’s not hard on barrels.

I asked friend when he was still active Marine Corp sniper (just retired 2 years ago with 22 years of service) with all the PSR and ASR stuff going on…what caliber would he like to see in a rifle system that is set up for three different calibers per gun/weapon system. He said with out a doubt a 6.5mm….then a 308 win and a 30cal mag more so than the 338 mag. He said if no 6.5 ammo or mag ammo available…he will always be able to find 308/7.62 nato ammo and have a serviceable weapon.


Again my .02 and my opinion on some of it and also based on data that I’ve seen over the years.

 

[824Ghostwalker]

The only two shortcomings of that platform were the non free floated KAC rails, which have the potential to shift IR laser zero and the overall length of a suppressed m16a4 for CQB environments. Other than that a great weapon.

personally I’d go with a MK12MOD 0/1. a 14.5” Colt socom profiled sopmod block II with a second upper, specifically a MK18CQBR kitted out for running suppressed with night vision capabilities.

Ammo has come a long way as well. Hornady TAP SBR 5.56 designed specifically for short barrel applications and the MK262 77gr are two that come to mind.

so between the two I’m going M4 as a compromise between the 20” and 10.3” barrels. Small enough to work indoors and enough barrel left to reach out to most modern day engagement distances.