[Packing a 45]

Gentelmen I have been doing a stiffning job on a GI fiber stock and Loaded SS. and have come up with an issue. When I lock the action into the stock I can see daylight between the heel and the stock maby 64 inch a little uneaven, I have not worked on that area. The only contact between the action and stock is the front band the heel, and trigger assembly I have placed paper strips between the action and stock then locked the action in then pulled the paper out one at a time slideing them around good cleareance from front band to mag well, have run a feeler gague around the action with no contact. The trigger seems to have good pull down pressure. Do I need too build up the heel or what.
Thanks
Packing

 

[MemphisMachinists]

I'll take a stab at this.Your action must be touching somewhere. Your post is a bit cunfusing because you say it is not touching the reciever heel, but then you say,
"The only contact between the action and stock is the front band the heel, and trigger assembly"
Pictures would help a lot. Reciever should contact the stock just behind the barrel and just below the serial number area. If you are getting good feel on your trigger guard lock up it has to be touching some where. This sort of thing can be hard to determine. Look for obvious places in the stock where it might touch try marking some spots with a majik marker and then looking for rub spots.
Edit: Is it possible that in your stiffining process you have the gas cyl resting on the stock?

 

[Packing a 45]

Log on Prob.

Can not stay loged on long enough too clear this up. Packing

 

[Packing a 45]

Action Stock Fit #3

Try again.
Sorry of the confusion. There is contact at the front band and under the the chamber at the front of the mag well, I think that is where the action pivits. Am I wrong?

Where the the action set's on the stock I can run a .010 feeler gage all the way around the action no with interferance.

The heal has about 36 In. to 64 in cleareance between stock and action, with TG locked in.

With action ad stock locked in a vice with one finger down pressure at front band I can seperate the action from the stock, not much pressure needed, s that good?

I might have gotten a little carried away with file and sand paper during clean up on the Marine Tex after the stock work.

If someone has a picture they can post of where the action pivits if I have too build up that section to increase Bbl, pull down pressure, or where I can find post or info. I would be very greatfull.


This whole post is too find if I need too build up the stock under the heel or something else. Thanks. Packing

 

[MemphisMachinists]

There is a section in Kuhnhausen's shop manual about this, but it is not real clear to me. He says "The entire outside perimter of reciever tang shall have equal bearing on the stock." He also says "The rear leggs of the reciever shall have eual bearing on the recoil shoulders of the stock liner".There is about a half a page called Stock and Stock fit. On another page that has descriptions of the reciever and points to the area below the rear sights calling this the reciever stock bearing surfacee. These are the angled surfaces on the bottom of the reciever. They extend to the spot directly above the leggs. I have a NOS fiberglass stock that has not been tampered with. It looks like it makes conact in the front without the trigger group pulling down, but the rear has a slight gap (Paper thin) untill the TG is installed and pulling down. I am learning from your post and hope it is helping you, but I definitley aint an expert.

 

[Packing a 45]

Action Stock Fit #4

Memphis Machinists/ MM
I want to thank you for your time and effort. Reading from your last post gave me some insite on what to look for along with more questions.

Kuhnhausen mentions stock liner so he must be talking about wood stocks. Wondering is there s much diffrence other than that.

You mention the tang is that the heel ?

If the entire outside of the tang needs full contact I can build that up. It does not have a flat leavel surface just have too figure out the proper elevation for proper pulldown.

The reviever stock bearing surfacee of the stock is flat MY BAD I can build that back up. I wonder if the angles between the two will pinch the stock inwards too cause a squeeze fit on the legs/lugs for a tighter fit when locked up.

What is a NOS stock ?

I can shim the TG for a tighter lockup but I think that would change some thngs for the worse somthing about doubels. Is that right ?

Where can I order Kuhnhausens"s shop manual ?

Maybe Gus, Diffrent, or others can chime in and enlighten us on the diffrence between the two types of stocks.

Again thanks. Memphis Machinists

Packin

 

[MemphisMachinists]

NOS means new old sevice.
Kuhnhausen has several books. I started with him on 1911's.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...ooks&hvadid=7343911735&ref=pd_sl_739eh1ya8h_b
I have decided that he is not talking about what you are concerned about on the reciever legs. This is important but just not what you are concerned with now.
My NOS stocks have some clearence between the front part of the reciever and the rear (heel). I think the term tang must refer to the angled portion of the bottom of the reciever. Not all manufacturers are making this an angle cut, but my Fultons are. An angle cut here seems logical to reduce the bearing surface.
I'll try to do some pics tommorrow.

 

[Gus Fisher]

Since this question comes up a lot, I decided to post a new thread on it. I haven't written all the posts for the thread yet, but I think it may help and stay tuned as I get more posts typed:

http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/110306-fit-m1-m14-receivers-stocks.html#post806294

 

[Rojkoh]

Gentelmen I have been doing a stiffning job on a GI fiber stock and Loaded SS. and have come up with an issue. When I lock the action into the stock I can see daylight between the heel and the stock maby 64 inch a little uneaven, I have not worked on that area. The only contact between the action and stock is the front band the heel, and trigger assembly I have placed paper strips between the action and stock then locked the action in then pulled the paper out one at a time slideing them around good cleareance from front band to mag well, have run a feeler gague around the action with no contact. The trigger seems to have good pull down pressure. Do I need too build up the heel or what.


GI Fiberglass stocks are horrible. You won't get anything more then a standard USGI issue rifle accuracy if you use one, even if you bed the rifle. When they started the production run, they realized how bad it was an the run of glass stocks was fairly limited. *IF* you want a GOOD Glass stock, go to McMillan and look at: M1A, M2A and M3A stocks. First time I ever bedded a rifle into a glass stock was a Devine Tx rifle into the M1A stock in 78 I think it was. I have an M1A stock waiting for me for my project. It'll show bedding a M1A action into the stock without bothering with a liner. The Devine Tx rifle still shoots just fine with the original bedding job. PS, the mean Radius for an issue rifle was 3-5 inches at 100 yards per Frankfort documentation on my shelf.

 

[Rojkoh]

I'm currently salvaging a very BAD surplus Walnut stock for the project. At the moment I'm filling the selector switch hole and take care of some other issues on the stock, like dings and dents.

If anyone wants to see any of it, let me know via "private" message. It gets to me without having to find it.

Case in point: putting down "footings" for the bedding I'll use for the Selector hole and adding some 3/4 inch finishing nails to strengthen it.

 

[Gus Fisher]

GI Fiberglass stocks are horrible. You won't get anything more then a standard USGI issue rifle accuracy if you use one, even if you bed the rifle. When they started the production run, they realized how bad it was an the run of glass stocks was fairly limited. *IF* you want a GOOD Glass stock, go to McMillan and look at: M1A, M2A and M3A stocks. First time I ever bedded a rifle into a glass stock was a Devine Tx rifle into the M1A stock in 78 I think it was. I have an M1A stock waiting for me for my project. It'll show bedding a M1A action into the stock without bothering with a liner. The Devine Tx rifle still shoots just fine with the original bedding job. PS, the mean Radius for an issue rifle was 3-5 inches at 100 yards per Frankfort documentation on my shelf.

The M14 stock liner was necessary on standard size infanty wood stocks to reinforce the mag well area and make it less prone to cracking. As the McMillan stocks were so much stronger than wood, I don't know anyone who ever used a stock liner in them as it was never necessary.

G.I. fiberglass stocks were and are competitive with wood stocks on the NM course when the fore ends are stiffened up. Matter of fact because they were not subject to swelling and shrinkage, they were better. The problem early on was we did not have a bedding compound of high enough quality to do that until McMillan had already come out with their stocks. Of course I won't ever dispute the McMillan stocks are the highest quality fiberglass stock out there, but a properly bedded and reinforced G.I. fiberglass stock showed it was as competitive as almost every other stock than the McMillan.

 

[Packing a 45]

Packing a 45 Back at it

Gentelmen I'm back too this project after some Auto problems. I have been looking for info on where too place the coat hangers beneath the Bbl, and what I'm trying too accomplish. I am lost. A picture would be great. Packing

 

[Gus Fisher]

Gentelmen I'm back too this project after some Auto problems. I have been looking for info on where too place the coat hangers beneath the Bbl, and what I'm trying too accomplish. I am lost. A picture would be great. Packing

I think TonyBen shows it in some of his photo essays.

 

[tonyben]

Sorry I'm late to the party.

The farther forward, the better. Also, I'd take Gus' advice and use a stout drill rod or welding rod in the diameter of a coat hangar. I feel that my bedding job could have been better if I had a more robust rod that provided better pressure.

IIRC, with the drill rod inserted, the heel should rest around a half an inch above the stock and require force to squeeze it down.

 

[Packing a 45]

Stock Action Fit # ?

Sorry I'm late to the party.

The farther forward, the better. Also, I'd take Gus' advice and use a stout drill rod or welding rod in the diameter of a coat hangar. I feel that my bedding job could have been better if I had a more robust rod that provided better pressure.

IIRC, with the drill rod inserted, the heel should rest around a half an inch above the stock and require force to squeeze it down.

TonyBen? Guss
Tony after our phone conversation I went ahead with the top of the stock
and bottom of the action bedding useing the drill rod Gus recomended and it
worked great I have 1/2" of cleareance at the heel. But I did not get the TG lockup I was wanting, I really have too force the action down into the stock
realy takes a lot of muscle and a finel rap hard rap with my hand. Afread something will break. Is it ok too releve the stock under the TG ears to releve the tightness. Thanks. Packing

 

[tonyben]

It's hard to say. It could just be that the bedding was so tight that the TG has a hard time closing, but as long as it passes the function check, it's okay. It's really hard to describe how a trigger should lock up. It's something that you almost need an example to handle. One person's idea of too tight is different than another person's idea of too tight.

Shoot me your e-mail address and I'll send a copy of my old bedding instructions. I just happened to find a copy that someone e-mailed me a couple of years ago that had screen shots of all the text and illustrations. It may hold the answer you are looking for.

If it's too tight, the rifle can go full auto on you, but it's easily corrected. The only other possible damage could be that the trigger guard itself bends and won't lock the receiver in the stock.

But if it's tight and the trigger guard doesn't bend, and the rifle functions fine, then run with it.

Tony.

 

[Gus Fisher]

TonyBen? Guss
Tony after our phone conversation I went ahead with the top of the stock
and bottom of the action bedding useing the drill rod Gus recomended and it
worked great I have 1/2" of cleareance at the heel. But I did not get the TG lockup I was wanting, I really have too force the action down into the stock
realy takes a lot of muscle and a finel rap hard rap with my hand. Afread something will break. Is it ok too releve the stock under the TG ears to releve the tightness. Thanks. Packing

I am afraid I'm not following your description. is it that way BEFORE you put the bedding compound in the rifle or is it like that after you already bedded it? After bedding, you must clean up the glass bedding to ensure the receiver is not hanging up somewhere. Excess bedding material left where it shouldn't be left can make it extremely difficult to get the receiver down into the stock. The receiver should fit noticeably tighter in a bedded stock than a non bedded stock.

One area that excess bedding material can make it a BEAR to get the receiver in and out of the stock is in the "D" shaped cut outs of the receiver legs. If there was not enough clay used in those receiver leg cut outs and bedding material protrudes into the open space of the "D" shaped cuts, that will be a real problem on some rifles.

If you did not clear the stock enough for the end of the connector lock that sticks out of the receiver, that will make it very difficult to impossible for the receiver to go into the stock.

Actually, we really need you to supply pictures of your bedding in all these areas on both sides of the stock to see if we can see something that would cause the problem.

Also, the D shaped cut outs in the receiver legs are TOO HIGH on some commercial receivers compared to G.I. receivers. So when you use a commercial receiver like that in a G.I. stock, it can be extremely difficult to impossible to close the trigger guard.

So first we have to establish the receiver is not hanging up somewhere in the stock and is actually resting down on the bedding surface.

Then and only then, if the trigger housing has too much tension, you can file the area under the forward ears of the trigger housing to get a little less tightness to close the trigger guard. You must also ensure the rear of the housing is not further down from 1.725" from the top of the stock, BTW. When I have to cut down the stock for the front ears of the trigger housing, I ALWAYS glass bed under them after I do it to ensure even pressure when the trigger guard clamps down.

 

[Packing a 45]

Action Stock Fit #5

I am afraid I'm not following your description. is it that way BEFORE you put the bedding compound in the rifle or is it like that after you already bedded it? After bedding, you must clean up the glass bedding to ensure the receiver is not hanging up somewhere. Excess bedding material left where it shouldn't be left can make it extremely difficult to get the receiver down into the stock. The receiver should fit noticeably tighter in a bedded stock than a non bedded stock.

One area that excess bedding material can make it a BEAR to get the receiver in and out of the stock is in the "D" shaped cut outs of the receiver legs. If there was not enough clay used in those receiver leg cut outs and bedding material protrudes into the open space of the "D" shaped cuts, that will be a real problem on some rifles.

If you did not clear the stock enough for the end of the connector lock that sticks out of the receiver, that will make it very difficult to impossible for the receiver to go into the stock.

Actually, we really need you to supply pictures of your bedding in all these areas on both sides of the stock to see if we can see something that would cause the problem.

Also, the D shaped cut outs in the receiver legs are TOO HIGH on some commercial receivers compared to G.I. receivers. So when you use a commercial receiver like that in a G.I. stock, it can be extremely difficult to impossible to close the trigger guar Gus? Tony
I did not do complete bedding job what I had was daylight between the action and top of the stock at the heel. I bedded the top of the stock from the back of the heel to the front of the recever. My wrong doing was useing a C clamp for plldown instead of the TG, did not get as much pulldown as I thought that was causing the tight TG lockup I had also inserted a mag. for alignment, that worked out good. When every thing was cured and pulled apart and going back togeather again that is when I found the extra tight lock up. I shaved a little off the top of the stock with a draw file, every thing is fitting better now. I had also re fitted the stock ferrul it Marine Tex as it was ratteling arround like a BB in a box car.
Gus, Tony I wat too thank you for your time a knowledge. Vern

 

[Packing a 45]

Action Stock Fit #5

Gus/Tony
This is the fifth time I have writen this tonight and lost it, this is going to e short. Did nt do a compete beddind job, only the top of the stock as I could see day light under the heel, did not get action pulled down as tight as I should have that is where the Tight TG lockup came from. Took a couple passes with a draw file every thing good now. Range trip next day or two.
Gus, Tony. I want too thank you for your time and knowledge. Vern

 

[Gus Fisher]

OK, NOW I understand what happened.

Yes, you learned the hard way that one must use the triggerguard and housing to clamp down the receiver even when one is only bedding the top surface of the stock. BTW, I don't have time to type all the mistakes I or others have done trying to learn things about these rifles, so don't feel alone. GRIN.

When we were production building M14's into NM M14's, we had to glass the trigger housings at the same time we did the rest of the rifle. That led to some real problems every now and then. That's why I almost never glass bed the receiver AND the trigger housing anymore, but do it one at a time. I clamp the trigger guard down when doing the receiver and then go back and glass bed just the trigger housing with good "draw" or tension after the top is done.