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226/228 video and failure drills

1480 Views 13 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  Mocos
Here's a video of my range day with my new toy.

I've never competed but would like any input or criticism's on my failure drills.

How did I do for 10 yards?

Should I be closer?

Am I going to fast; too slow?

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTvoMzJ1zjs&context=C3d6aafdADOEgsToPDskIn0cdVM5p6lTdcuGzPFuJP[/ame]
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That's pretty good shooting. He/She'd be dead if they were a threat. I like as small groups as I can get and practice to, but at the end of the day it's still about being able to stop the threat and that shooting certainly would.


DI5
 
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Dunno, I'd say slow - way slow for a gunfight.

The only real life story I have is from a cop buddy. One of the guys in the precinct was making extra money doing bank guard duty when the bank got robbed. This guy pulled a shotgun in the bank and pointed it at the guard.

The guard was sitting behind a desk and had literally a tenth of a second to get at his gun. He started shooting as soon as it cleared his holster - as fast as he could pull the trigger, and he kept shooting as he brought it up and shot the robber dead. But in doing so, he left a stitch pattern across the top of the desk that walked right up the front of the perp.

I think when SHTF, you have zero time to aim, you need lead going down range as fast as possible.

Statistically, I can back this up. The limits of lethality for your target are that you need to get a hit - one hit, anywhere on the target. All your hits are in the center 1/3 of the target. If you consider that group size and speed are direct tradeoffs, ie the faster you shoot the bigger your pattern, it says you could shoot a LOT faster, and still get one hit on the paper - and that's all you need to stop someone.

OK, out of 2 mags if you really only get one on the paper, maybe you are a little wild, but still, all of them in the middle 1/3 is much too much time aiming.

That all said, I guess it is a question between are you trying to compete, or practice self defense drills.
 

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Dunno, I'd say slow - way slow for a gunfight.

The only real life story I have is from a cop buddy. One of the guys in the precinct was making extra money doing bank guard duty when the bank got robbed. This guy pulled a shotgun in the bank and pointed it at the guard.

The guard was sitting behind a desk and had literally a tenth of a second to get at his gun. He started shooting as soon as it cleared his holster - as fast as he could pull the trigger, and he kept shooting as he brought it up and shot the robber dead. But in doing so, he left a stitch pattern across the top of the desk that walked right up the front of the perp.

I think when SHTF, you have zero time to aim, you need lead going down range as fast as possible.

Statistically, I can back this up. The limits of lethality for your target are that you need to get a hit - one hit, anywhere on the target. All your hits are in the center 1/3 of the target. If you consider that group size and speed are direct tradeoffs, ie the faster you shoot the bigger your pattern, it says you could shoot a LOT faster, and still get one hit on the paper - and that's all you need to stop someone.

OK, out of 2 mags if you really only get one on the paper, maybe you are a little wild, but still, all of them in the middle 1/3 is much too much time aiming.

That all said, I guess it is a question between are you trying to compete, or practice self defense drills.
I disagree with all of this. Training to miss 5 or 6 times before you place a hit, then bragging about how fast you missed 6 times, is not the way to go. One solid hit with the first shot is faster and safer than spraying 6 rounds randomly around the room no matter how fast you yank them out. If I really concentrated, I'm pretty sure I could dump an entire 15 round mag out of a Beretta 92 in maybe 3 seconds, and if I was really hot I could try hard to miss an E silhouette at 10 yards with all 15 rounds. Would that make me an expert? Or save my life?

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Tonyben, you're in the ballpark, just need more rounds downrange. When you get slow, and then smooth, and then fast, a failure drill will run something like .1 second from first shot to second shot (it's a double tap or hammer) then the third shot will break in under 1 second for the 3 shot drill. (Shooting time, not counting draw and presentation.)

Your basic skills look really solid. DI5
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for all the input and things to consider. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a bubble. I can't get out and join other shooters frequently and I can only make it to the range on my own schedule. A lot of times that leaves me to practice by myself of with a guest who doesn't have the basics and fundamentals that I have so I don't usually have anyone of better skill than me to compare myself to.

I'm not trying to impress anyone, I would just like some experienced folks to give me the comments that you guys just did. It's more for me to chew on and try and fill in the holes in my shooting skill.

Apparently, the time at the indoor rimfire range at midnight has been useful. I think I'll pack the 22 to the action range next time and spend more time doing these drills.

Thanks again folks.

Tony.
 

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Apparently, the time at the indoor rimfire range at midnight has been useful. I think I'll pack the 22 to the action range next time and spend more time doing these drills.

.
That's a great time to do defensive shooting. Now do it with the lights out. Or just barely bright enough to identify the target. And for the next "failure"? Flashlight goes out just as you start shooting... Good tritium sights are a wonderful thing! You can see a target long after regular sights are completely useless.

My first night shoot at Ft. Benning? No night sights. Ever after? If at all possible!


BTW, I can see where art7 might think you are running slow. The second half of the video is where the speed comes in, but it's hard to see.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
That's a great time to do defensive shooting. Now do it with the lights out. Or just barely bright enough to identify the target. And for the next "failure"? Flashlight goes out just as you start shooting... Good tritium sights are a wonderful thing! You can see a target long after regular sights are completely useless.

My first night shoot at Ft. Benning? No night sights. Ever after? If at all possible!


BTW, I can see where art7 might think you are running slow. The second half of the video is where the speed comes in, but it's hard to see.
That's a great idea! I'll have to try that.

Tony.
 

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Hey Tony,,looks like your on the right track !!! Some good info above for sure. It all boils down to range time and making that range time a worthwhile outing !! RNGR2 Here are some targets and drill I like,,they concentrate on the Fundamentals,,and thats what its all about,,go slow,,do it "Right" and the speed will come !!! Like Larry Vickers says,,"Speed Is Fine,,But Accuracy is Final" It all comes with time and rounds down range !!!
This is good with a buddy !
http://www.mdtstraining.com/Fundamental & Chase Drill.pdf
The Dot Torture,,,,good drill,
http://www.mdtstraining.com/dottorture.pdf
Another good trigger control drill:
http://www.mdtstraining.com/MDTSTriggerBarTarget.pdf
More fundamentals and trigger control stuff:
http://www.mdtstraining.com/MDTS_5_Dot.pdf
Work on these for awhile,,,all good stuff I feel,,as time goes on you WILL get better and then you move out to further distances,,& that is only limited to what you & your State deems a fair/safe/practical distance that you can defend yourself and your family !! In NY,,you have to run the other way no matter what,,LOL !!! Not really that bad,,,but it can be trying at times,but enough about that,,LOL !! Also get yourself a Shot Timer,,they make a HUGE difference,,,it is amazing what that little buzzer does to increase the stress level !!!
Here is a super pull your hair out big time stress inducer,,but fun,,fun,,fun !!! Check it out !! The FAST Drill !!
http://pistol-training.com/fastest
 
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Tony, thanks for sharing the vid; love to see SIGS in action, got a 228 myself....

speed in a self defense situation is a relative term, fast enough to stop the bad guy before he injures you and yours and slow enough to keep all your rounds on target and not hit any innocent bystanders....

the biggest eye opener for me regarding "how close, how fast" was learning about and practing the Tueller Drill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
 

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Pistol Drill

Your hits looked good to me. I noticed your split times varied between shots probably due to fighting to get that front sight re-aligned. Not your fault. A tuned pistol will drop that front post exactly straight down in perfect alignment every time. First step is to tune those bad boys to your grip strength and arm strength. Once that is done you should work toward one single ragged hole at 7 yards first. Then maybe 10 later on. Split times should be around 3 tenths of a second for a single ragged hole; to work towards (get a shot timer). In time with practice that will drop under 2 tenths - same ragged single hole. As you progress over time you might decide a narrower front post helpful, too. Your eyes will get faster, too.

Btw, it usually takes about 10,000 rounds to tune and learn a pistol. Some folks might disagree with that comment. They are free to do so. I've been there for years with various pistols everything from Glocks, 1911 singles stacks, 1911 double stacks, revolvers, etc. That's what it took.

If this is about self defense getting a hit on the first shot counts. You may not get another. Make it count.
 

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I have to lean toward what Art7 said above. Ideally your first shot coming up from the holster hits center mass but I'll take any torso hit. Your next shot you'll have both hands on the gun and it has to be a center mass hit. Then you just keep pulling the trigger until he stops being a threat. Obviously multiple threats will change this scenario. The winner is the man that goes home that night.
 

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some things to consider..if your pistol is already drawn at eye level, your first round is center mass, the second, third or fourth is as fast as you can deliver... same general area....somewhere after the first or second round you assess if the intended target iis affected ..body armor? chest rig??..if not..then move up fast...sending once you've past the nose......hits from the throat up to the nose can past through and not stop the threat because they are still below the brain. If from a holster draw or low readly, start sending as soon as you think you are pointing at the pelvis....and work your way up. that happens only in a perfect world.....otherwise you shoot till the threat is gone.....the single aimed shot is nice but if you are the second to draw or to present You are at a distinct disadvantage if the threat is already got you targeted....otherwise you are on the right track.
 
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