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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've read that 180's are too heavy and slow for the M1A.
But my Hornady load manual gives data for the match 178gr....
So 2gr cannot make a difference.
I have a few hundred 180 Sierra soft points laying around and would like to work up a load.
Anyone have any related experience with this?
 

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A lot of 180 SMK's were used before there were any 175 grain SMK's. To be safe they really should be loaded on the mild side. The NRA has some service rifle load data for 180 grain bullets in military cases but not a lot. Hodgdon #25 manual has service rifle load data using 180 grain bullets in both commercial Winchester cases and in military cases but only using Hodgdon powders. Both sources are dated from the 1980's. The data is listed here in a few threads.
 

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Oh maybe I didn't post the 180 grain bullet loads from Hodgdon here.

Hodgdon #25 service rifle 180 grain bullet load data

Winchester case

BL-C2 - start 42.0 2439 fps / max 44.0 2544 fps
H-335 - start 38.0 2340 fps / max 40.0 2469 fps
H4895 - start 37.0 2330 fps / max 39.0 2434 fps

Military case

BL-C2 - start 40.0 2311 fps / max 42.0 2434 fps
H-335 - start 37.0 2282 fps / max 39.0 2414 fps
H4895 - start 36.0 2304 fps / max 38.0 2432 fps


NRA service rifle 180 grain bullet load data

Military case data only

IMR-4895 - 38.5 gr - 2500 fps
H-4895 - 39.0 gr - 2502 fps
IMR-4064 - 42.0 gr - 2564 fps
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you

Oh maybe I didn't post the 180 grain bullet loads from Hodgdon here.

Hodgdon #25 service rifle 180 grain bullet load data

Winchester case

BL-C2 - start 42.0 2439 fps / max 44.0 2544 fps
H-335 - start 38.0 2340 fps / max 40.0 2469 fps
H4895 - start 37.0 2330 fps / max 39.0 2434 fps

Military case

BL-C2 - start 40.0 2311 fps / max 42.0 2434 fps
H-335 - start 37.0 2282 fps / max 39.0 2414 fps
H4895 - start 36.0 2304 fps / max 38.0 2432 fps


NRA service rifle 180 grain bullet load data

Military case data only

IMR-4895 - 38.5 gr - 2500 fps
H-4895 - 39.0 gr - 2502 fps
IMR-4064 - 42.0 gr - 2564 fps

THANK YOU VERY MUCH SIR!!! That helps me out a lot!!
 

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Note the NRA load data had a max load of 41.0 grains of IMR-4064 with the 174 grain M118 bullet and the 185 grain Lapua bullet. 42.0 grains is tough to fit in a military case with a 180 grain bullet but it also difficult to get an overpressure load using IMR-4064 in 7.62 though. The H-4895 listed in both sources is old (made in Scotland?) H-4895, not current made in Australia H-4895 although Hodgdon had the newer H-4895 to be able to use the older load data.
 

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Depends on the rifling twist

I'm no expert on this, but I would like to report that LRB warned me that my barrel might not be as accurate with the 180's as with the lighter bullets. They cautioned me that with my barrel, the 173-175's were probably my upper limit.

I have the Criterion medium-weight, moly barrel with 1:11 twist.

What I would love to see explained is which barrel twist would one want for the heavier bullets, the 1:10 or the 1:12? And why?

And then would one lose the ability to be accurate with the lighter bullets, say the 147's?
 

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Re: Twist

I had a NM SAI M1A with a 1:11 twist barrel and it shot 180's just fine. With a 1:12 you might see a degradation in accuracy with the 180s, but 175 should be OK. Especially the 175 Sierra...I believe it was designed to be fired in a 1:12 twist barrel. Each rifle is different, you really have to try it and see.

Keep in mind when people say one barrel twist will be more accurate than another, they're kind of "splitting hairs". The average Joe firing surplus/mil-spec ammo out of a SAI standard M1A or the equivalent (i.e. non-match accurized rifle) might not notice a difference with different barrel twists. Its the master level competitor shooting a match accurized rifle that might. I would think you'd be hard pressed to notice much difference in barrels with differing twists (1:10, 1:11 or 1:12) shooting mil-spec ammo out of a mil-spec (i.e. non-accurized) rifle. It's not like a mil-spec rifle shooting 1.5 in groups with 147 gr bullets in a 1:12 twist barrel will shoot 8 in groups with a 1:10 twist barrel.

The general rule of thumb is heavier bullet needs faster twists. Although stated more accurately, it's actually the bullet length that drives the needed twist required to stabilize the bullet (i.e. the longer the bullet, the faster the required twist). It just that as bullets get longer they also get heavier so people more commonly discuss weight vs twist instead of length vs. twist.

Any common M-14 twist (1:10, 1:11, 1:12) should adequately stabilize the common weight bullet weights used in the M-14 platform (147gr - 175gr).

The 180s are a bit different as they are on the upper end of what the M-14 was designed to shoot.
 

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This is a very Interesting Thread, (too me anyway) I am very aware that some used the 180gr Bullet in the past and some still do and I have been around 14s since 1963,( I was Head Count at the Last Supper) LOL1 however I would not subject my 14s to 180s, I like my TRW Op Rods too much!
I can't see why some still insist on using 180s when the 175 SMK outperforms it ( In my Book anyway) my two Match Rifles are 1in10s and my Standard Rifle is 1in12, the 1in10s will handle any Bullet from 125gr to 175gr with great accuracy but I limit my 1in12 to 168s!
Having said all this I only use 175s for the 600yd Line and that's it, I use 147-168 for anything else,I found the above Post by plsmyk Right in the X Ring,while the Statement of the heavier the Bullet the faster the Twist is only partially correct, Bullet Length is more Important to the Twist rate of Your Barrel than Bullet Weight and also no two Rifles shoot alike,one may like a particular Load or Ammo and the other does not, You all can take my Word for that, I have seen it too many times!SOAPBOX1
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqbullettwist.html
 

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Accuracy aside, can anyone document a case of the bullet weight damaging a M1-A/M14. Not using too slow a powder, not a Garand, but a documented case of a 180 grain bullet (or heavier) damaging a M1-A/M14 rifle. I would be really interested.

Back in the day the NRA did a feature article on the USMC armorers? (not sure of their title) who reloaded for the USMC A-Rifle Team out of Quantico. If my memory is correct they used 180 grain SMK for their 600 and beyond load. Obviously, this was pre-175 SMK.

Thanks

Jerry
 

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Back in the day the NRA did a feature article on the USMC armorers? (not sure of their title) who reloaded for the USMC A-Rifle Team out of Quantico. If my memory is correct they used 180 grain SMK for their 600 and beyond load. Obviously, this was pre-175 SMK.
Thanks
Jerry
I remember a Marine load called G4, I think,. It was bad enough that fired brass was policed because they did not want anyone trying to reload it. But that was 168's. A USAR shooter told of a 180gr. load with a ridiculous amount of 4064 that was for 1000 yards. Of course they had an armorers van 50 feet away with 5 million repair parts and a gaggle of trained builders. I heard about cracked stocks shooting atom bomb cartridges but little about metal failures.

David
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks

Given the reply's I will use the 180's for plinking in my bolt guns and stick to the lighter ones for the m1a. Thanks.
 

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Given the reply's I will use the 180's for plinking in my bolt guns and stick to the lighter ones for the m1a. Thanks.
good call broGITEN
 

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Accuracy aside, can anyone document a case of the bullet weight damaging a M1-A/M14. Not using too slow a powder, not a Garand, but a documented case of a 180 grain bullet (or heavier) damaging a M1-A/M14 rifle. I would be really interested.

Back in the day the NRA did a feature article on the USMC armorers? (not sure of their title) who reloaded for the USMC A-Rifle Team out of Quantico. If my memory is correct they used 180 grain SMK for their 600 and beyond load. Obviously, this was pre-175 SMK.

Thanks

Jerry
I have not read any documented report of such. I heard a lot of people make of such statement, but not documented.

I've shot Ks of 185 Bergers plus my short range load and wore out barrels and did not bend the op rod. To be fair I have not seen a bent op rod in the flesh so I would not know how tell one from another.

Over the last few years I've been shooting the 185 Bergers in my M1As and M1s, keeping the velocity at around 2530-2550 range, I've never found the damage in any of the rifles.

Yes, the 185 Bergers at 2550 will outshoot the 175s in the wind if driven at the same velocity by almost a scoring ring at 600. Remember, only three inches separate the scoring rings at 600. You have to drive the 175s at 2800 (higher port pressure and you can't get there with the gas gun) to come close to the 185s.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I have not read any documented report of such. I heard a lot of people make of such statement, but not documented.

I've shot Ks of 185 Bergers plus my short range load and wore out barrels and did not bend the op rod. To be fair I have not seen a bent op rod in the flesh so I would not know how tell one from another.

Over the last few years I've been shooting the 185 Bergers in my M1As and M1s, keeping the velocity at around 2530-2550 range, I've never found the damage in any of the rifles.

Yes, the 185 Bergers at 2550 will outshoot the 175s in the wind if driven at the same velocity by almost a scoring ring at 600. Remember, only three inches separate the scoring rings at 600. You have to drive the 175s at 2800 (higher port pressure and you can't get there with the gas gun) to come close to the 185s.
What COL do you load the Bergers????
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Garand

As I'm working up these loads are there any "signs and symptoms" specific to the M1 Garand that I should look out for???? How do i tell when I'm getting "hot"......

My Hornady Manual has M1 loads with 178's with H4895

38.2min. all the way up to 46.4max!!!

That is significantly higher than the listed loads given to me here.

Any thoughts?
 

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As I'm working up these loads are there any "signs and symptoms" specific to the M1 Garand that I should look out for???? How do i tell when I'm getting "hot"......

My Hornady Manual has M1 loads with 178's with H4895

38.2min. all the way up to 46.4max!!!

That is significantly higher than the listed loads given to me here.

Any thoughts?

Dave 7.62, the guy's here are talking loads for 7.62/.308 if your going too use the 180's in a M1/30.06 a starting load with H4895 at 45grs and working up is a good start, theres still plenty of leftover air space in a 30.06 case that I doubt your going too see any preasure signs that soon/low.

I use as a regular load of 46.5grs of H-4895 with 168's and 175's in both a M1 and 03 rifles and don't have any preasure issues cases used are Greek HXP and L.C. coal 3.30 with a WLRP
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Dave 7.62, the guy's here are talking loads for 7.62/.308 if your going too use the 180's in a M1/30.06 a starting load with H4895 at 45grs and working up is a good start, theres still plenty of leftover air space in a 30.06 case that I doubt your going too see any preasure signs that soon/low.

I use as a regular load of 46.5grs of H-4895 with 168's and 175's in both a M1 and 03 rifles and don't have any preasure issues cases used are Greek HXP and L.C. coal 3.30 with a WLRP
Yes sir. Sorry i have been researching for my M1A and M1Garand alot and got confused.

Thanks.
 

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I second Bamban's comments. I realize my population size is small in my study (just one, me), I have not suffered any ill effects of shooting the 185BT Berger. I have shot several thousand rounds of the stuff the last 2 -3 years and I am able to say I see not additional wear or tear on the weapon. I just bought anouther 1700 185s to load up for this season.

I load them with 4064 in a WIN case with CCIBR2 primers. I use enough powder to achieve 2525fps. COAL is long like Bamban's @ 2.95"
 
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